13L G40 Boldfresh vs. Jeff28 (Allies +11)

[boldfresh]

i don’t know what the true rule is on flying over neutrals.  IF it turns out to be that you cannot do so without at least making an attack on them, if not actually only able to do it if the planes are attacking the neutral itself (similar to a sub having to stop when it encounters a destroyer say?) then the question will be how will we handle what is an illegal attack.

cheers

[Jeff28]

Gamerman replied in the FAQ that it was illegal move.

If it’s my choice, I’d just return your fig to Italy and let the rest of the result stand.

Or, we can have a moderator rule and that’d be fine too.

–Jeff

[boldfresh]

i see gamer just gave the ruling on the combat issue, meaning the attack i made was illegal.  so keep in mind, had i cleared persia, the attack, i believe would have been negated and italy’s turn redone.  at which point, i would have had the option to try the attack with a tank and 2 bombers max.

[boldfresh]

yeah, i say let’s be friendly and ask for a moderator ruling if you are strict on that feeling.  i assure you i would never have made the attack without the fighter, as i even stated right after the attack in so many words.

of course, moderators always prefer not to be asked to rule on issues like this, always best if it can be worked out amicably between the players.

in that regard, of course you would prefer to have the result stand as rolled, but can you please consider it from the other perspective, if you had made the illegal attack.

personally i think the most FAIR way to do it (fairly uncomplicated since the move was only 2 combat moves and the moves made since are totally unrelated) is to completely redo the italian move.  that is the true test of whether i would actually have made the attack with tank, 2 bom only since i would still have the option to take a 24% shot at clearing the territory.  i assure you i would not take that risk.

thank you for your consideration in advance.

cheers

[boldfresh]

@Boldfresh:

i see gamer just gave the ruling on the combat issue, meaning the attack i made was illegal.  so keep in mind, had i cleared persia, the attack, i believe would have been negated and italy’s turn redone.  at which point, i would have had the option to try the attack with a tank and 2 bombers max.

i guess the real question is, if i had cleared NW persia with the use of the fighter, would you still say the same - put the fighter back in southern italy and let the result stand as rolled?

[Jeff28]

Of course not, I’d say re-do the turn. But I’d never have known it was an illegal attack so that’s moot. As the defender who didn’t make the illegal move don’t I get the choice? I have no idea how it works.

My feeling about re-doing Italy is it’s like giving you two licks on the lollipop.

Lick one is the attack. Lick two is you discovering, “Oh, my attack didn’t work, but look - it was illegal! Let’s re-do the whole turn!”

Not trying to impune your honor or anything. I’m sure it was unintentional.

Just a weird situation, especially since I was already counting all the free infantry.

[boldfresh]

i understand the idea of two licks and if i were to go ahead and attack with the tank and 2 bombers it would be really dirty and i would be a liar.  since i know i would never have made the attack with only 3 units, i am essentially suggesting that we just cancel the attack entirely.  silly, but i guess i’m saying go ahead and give me another chance to do it and i will prove to you i will not!  :-)

so if you would be ok with simply canceling the attack and allowing no other combat moves (this does hurt me some because there were other combat moves i was considering using those aircraft), then we could get on with a game you seem destined to win easily  :|.

what did you mean by your last line that you were already counting all the free infantry?

[boldfresh]

i do think i would have realized the attack was not legal for the same reason - knowing that it was such a big deal if i had won, i would have had to investigate the nagging feeling that i had after the turn was over, namely - hold on, i guess tripleA makes mistakes, was that even possible to do per the RULES?

so let’s take away the concept that if the illegal attack was made and i had won that it is “moot” and consider two other options - 1) i would likely have told you it was illegal and we would have agreed to redo the turn, or 2) if you HAD realized it was illegal, you would have suggested we redo the move, and i would have agreed.

[boldfresh]

the really good news is, regardless of what happens, we will both learn some very valuable information in this game, namely the specific rules regarding flying over neutrals in both combat and noncombat.

[Jeff28]

what did you mean by your last line that you were already counting all the free infantry?

You attacked the true neutrals.

I would pick up Spain, Sweden, Turkey, Afganistan, right?

–Jeff

[boldfresh]

ah!  yes, but of course i only declared war on the neutrals in order to fly over turkey…  so regardless of what we agree, i would hope you would not also insist that i still declare war on the neutrals…  :-)

[boldfresh]

as much as i love tripleA, i cannot help but be a little angry at her right now!  i am thinking - what kind of mess have you allowed me to get into miss tripleA!?  then i think, well i guess the responsibility for knowing the rules falls on me ultimately, which is true.  and then i think, well, does anyone but a few elite individuals even really know the true rules regarding combat and noncombat flights over neutrals?  and the answer to that question pretty clearly seems to be “no”…  :roll:

so, in the spirit of good sportsmanship, i am hoping we can come to a mutually acceptable agreement, considering from each side thoughtfully, on how to handle this situation so that no matter who loses, the loser will not point back to this and say it was the deciding factor.

cheers

[Jeff28]

That’s why I’m a big fan of letting the turn stand, obv. it’s game over for you.

–Jeff

[boldfresh]

i understand  :-) but have you considered this from the other side?  ie, if you had made the illegal attack.

new information still coming out apparently, in the FAQ thread.  something now about being able to immediately land aircraft in the neutrals??  geez, i don’t know if anyone but larry and krieghund know what the true answer is to these questions.

[Jeff28]

Go ahead and re-do Italy. I will trust your word that you will not re-attack N. Persia.

You were fair to me by re-doing G1 until I got the emails, I owe you one.

–Jeff

[boldfresh]

awesome, you are top notch in my book jeff.

be sure to check out what’s being discussed right now on the FAQ, very interesting.

[boldfresh]

i need a final answer on this flights over neutrals during noncombat before i do italy or germany!!  you have my word that i will not attack NW persia.  other than that, i will redo italy entirely, except that if i attack normandy, i will take AT LEAST one hit to the italians.

[boldfresh]

i refuse to move another muscle in this game until the rules concerning these true neutrals are CRYSTAL clear to us both  :-o hopefully krieg will answer my laundry list of questions soon.

cheers

[boldfresh]

well, i THINK everything is clear to me now.  so i will try to get back on this one soon!

[boldfresh]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.6

Game History

Round :10

Purchase Units - Italians
            Italians buy 1 tactical_bomber; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Italians
            2 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from Holland Belgium to Normandy Bordeaux

Combat - Italians
            Battle in Normandy Bordeaux
                Italians attack with 2 artilleries and 4 infantry
                Americans defend with 1 factory_minor, 1 harbour and 1 infantry
                    Italians roll dice for 2 artilleries and 4 infantry in Normandy Bordeaux, round 1 :  1/6 hits
                    Americans roll dice for 1 infantry in Normandy Bordeaux, round 1 :  0/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the Americans lost in Normandy Bordeaux
                Italians win, taking Normandy Bordeaux from Americans with 2 artilleries and 4 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Americans: 1 infantry

Non Combat Move - Italians
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from Normandy Bordeaux: 1 infantry
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            1 bomber moved from Yugoslavia to Southern Italy
            1 bomber moved from Yugoslavia to Southern Italy
            3 armour and 4 mech_infantrys moved from Yugoslavia to Greece
            1 armour moved from Rostov to Caucasus
            4 aaGuns and 2 infantry moved from Southern Italy to Northern Italy

Place Units - Italians
            1 tactical_bomber placed in Southern Italy

Turn Complete - Italians
            Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 2
                Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 105 Sea Zone. Rolls: 3,6
            Italians collect 15 PUs (2 lost to blockades); end with 15 PUs total

Territory Summary for Italians :

Normandy Bordeaux : 1 flag, 2 artilleries, 1 factory_minor, 1 harbour and 3 infantry
    Southern France : 1 flag, 1 factory_minor and 1 harbour
    Northern Italy : 4 aaGuns, 1 factory_major and 2 infantry
    Southern Italy : 1 airfield, 2 bombers, 1 factory_minor, 1 fighter, 1 harbour and 1 tactical_bomber
    Rostov : 1 flag
    Caucasus : 1 armour
    Greece : 1 flag, 3 armour and 4 mech_infantrys
    97 Sea Zone : 1 destroyer

Production/PUs Summary :

Germans : 53 / 72
    Russians : 15 / 20
    Japanese : 38 / 40
    Americans : 66 / 94
    Chinese : 23 / 24
    British : 32 / 37
    UK_Pacific : 0 / 0
    Italians : 17 / 15
    ANZAC : 17 / 24
    French : 4 / 0
    Dutch : 0 / 0
    Mongolians : 0 / 0
    Neutral_Axis : 0 / 0
    Neutral_Allies : 0 / 0
    Neutral_True : 18 / 0

Dice Statistics:

Total
            1 was rolled 1 times
            2 was rolled 1 times
            3 was rolled 4 times
            4 was rolled 1 times
            5 was rolled 1 times
            6 was rolled 4 times
        Average roll : 4.000
        Median : 3.500
        Variance : 1.091
        Standard Deviation : 1.044
        Total rolls : 12

Null / Other
            3 was rolled 1 times
            6 was rolled 2 times
        Average roll : 5.000
        Median : 6.000
        Variance : 2.500
        Standard Deviation : 1.581
        Total rolls : 3

Italians Combat
            1 was rolled 1 times
            2 was rolled 1 times
            3 was rolled 2 times
            4 was rolled 1 times
            5 was rolled 1 times
        Average roll : 3.000
        Median : 3.000
        Variance : 0.400
        Standard Deviation : 0.632
        Total rolls : 6

Americans Combat
            3 was rolled 1 times
            6 was rolled 2 times
        Average roll : 5.000
        Median : 6.000
        Variance : 2.500
        Standard Deviation : 1.581
        Total rolls : 3