strongbad and alamein (correct me at your discretion)
You’re both wrong. Hitler declared war on the US after British/Canadian intelligence leaked false documents suggesting that the US would declare war on Germany. This enraged Hitler to the point of declaring war on America in advance.
America did not wish to enter the war in Europe for many factors. For one - they had “suffered” enough during the first WW. Another there were many powerful friends of Germany, including the Kennedy’s which pushed for a Chamberline-like pacifist stance towards Germany. Another was the “America firsters” - a group of patriots who believed in everything you’re talking about - Life, liberty, blah blah blah, and that America would only lose these things if it entered the war. It was thanks to British MI6, Canadian intelligence, as well as Bill Donovan with the Office of Secret Services that got the U.S. into the war (that and Roosevelt’s “stallwartness” . . . .
if i was a Yank back then hmm this is not hard. i always support war ;) even if we were the Antoganists i still am Pro War! that about sums me up .
CC is right about the many powerful friends in Germany, as well as national heros, Charles Lindberg the only american aviator decorated by the Nazi party. But by the end of 1940 those friendships were strectched thin and corporations were seeing a cash flow problem down the line. The only way to stay out of the war was to stop selling goods to Britain and most other overseas locations. That would have lead to another depression. But the general population of the US could not foresee or understand the economics of the situation. I feel that once people started to lose their jobs and some politiacian started making speechs that they lost thier jobs because of a Facist in Germany moods would change drastically. If Japan had not attacked Pearl it would have taken longer for the US to get involved at a much greater cost.
Also to eloborated on a comment about heritage earlier, I can understand why in todays terms that people in the US are reluctant to go to war or get involved in overseas conflict. Were are American and have been for a few generations. But in the 30s and 40s many more people were first generation Americans and still very attached to Europe.
I’m enjoying everyones views on this ….
germany only declared war on us AFTER pearl harbor, and this was only b/c they knew we would declare war on them soon enough.
On of the reasons why Hitler declared war on the US was to show that he still held the initiative in the war, after the winter showed that the USSR would not collapse but had its first successes.
But when Hitler envaded France and the Baltic’s opinion started to change.
Hitler did not invade the Baltics. They were in the Soviets zone of influence according to the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty.
CC is right about the many powerful friends in Germany, as well as national heros, Charles Lindberg the only american aviator decorated by the Nazi party. But by the end of 1940 those friendships were strectched thin and corporations were seeing a cash flow problem down the line.
Ahm, there is a small problem.
Three of the leading industrials in the US ( Henry Ford of Ford, James Mooney of General Motors and Thomas Watson of IBM, providing the administrative backbone for the Holocaust, which they stopped not much before the declaration of war) received medals of honor from the Third Reich, Watson even got the highest medal that could be given to foreigners.
It seems to be the strategy of the USA to locate an enemy… then support the enemy of the enemy (like Hitler against Communists and Social Democrats, the Taliban against the Soviets, the Iraq against the Iran, what was the guy in Panama called again), make them big and nice and fat, and then smash them to pieces once they dirft off the line given by the US, and take more or less full control over the territory the former friend, then enemy controlled.
(I also found a list of the all interventions the US did, the conclusion of that: they are a warmongering country)
“they are a warmongering country”
Not to generalize too much……
crustic -
you raise an interesting perspective that I have never heard of before- point me to where you have gotten that info. in panzer leader guderian is puzzled by hitler’s war declaration, and accredits this towards hitlers foundness of the japanese warrior. and he would be some one I assume would be in the know.
Tinker- you bring up a very interesting point. and I cannot argue logically that this course would not have lead public opinion to sway. Once agian a credit to the administration for proceeding - against an enemy they could see was dangerous- Against public opinion.
f_alk. we were discussing the summer of 41, the treaty had already been broken, and the german army in august was already deep inside russia. I believe they captured smolensk in either august or september, and soon there after AG north did invade the baltic states (latvia estonia and lithuania- the populances of which were far harsher on the jews than the nazi’s). in order to isolate lenningrad. right?? I could be wrong- wouldn’t be the first time. and I don’t think we’re any more prone to violence or war than anyone else. why in germany they say “auslander Raus” like we say “hello”. but I think human beings as a whole ARE warlike. I think you have to be, for your Ideas and beliefs to survive.
FDR staged Pearl harbor.
A secret force was created to attack PH. Records were changed to cover the American carrier force that left Pearl shortly before the attack. Remember that the carrier was there?
How convenient that the Japanese did not hit the fuel reserves or oil refineries.
My dad was one of the Japanese Americans recruited for the mission.
America followed FDR like lemmings to water.
F_alk, thank you for the correction about the Baltics I appologize for stating bad history/geography. The Germans were thought to be Liberators as opposed to invaders in the Baltics.
I really meant to refer to 39’ poland and france, 40’ Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Holland.
@F_alk:
Ahm, there is a small problem.
Three of the leading industrials in the US ( Henry Ford of Ford, James Mooney of General Motors and Thomas Watson of IBM, providing the administrative backbone for the Holocaust, which they stopped not much before the declaration of war) received medals of honor from the Third Reich, Watson even got the highest medal that could be given to foreigners.
Also when were the medal of honors given out? I believe they were around 36’-38’??. This fits in with Hitler trying to sooth over American industry leaders, whom were enjoying the money and thier empolyees enjoyed feeding their children. Thomas Watson was a attractive traget because he was the president of the International Chamber of Commerce in 37’ which Hitler was using to his advantage. But industry could see (or so I hope) that times were changing very quickly.
FDR staged Pearl harbor.
A secret force was created to attack PH. Records were changed to cover the American carrier force that left Pearl shortly before the attack. Remember that the carrier was there?
How convenient that the Japanese did not hit the fuel reserves or oil refineries.
My dad was one of the Japanese Americans recruited for the mission.America followed FDR like lemmings to water.
I like to see evidence of this… :-?
@Maruikazi:
FDR staged Pearl harbor.
A secret force was created to attack PH. Records were changed to cover the American carrier force that left Pearl shortly before the attack. Remember that the carrier was there?
How convenient that the Japanese did not hit the fuel reserves or oil refineries.
My dad was one of the Japanese Americans recruited for the mission.America followed FDR like lemmings to water.
How about the Japanese Japanese that took part and planned the attack.
Oh, I get it, its the FBI or CIA lying to us again.
History is one big coverup.
Its America’s fault……what else is new
They sercetly planned all of WW2…Hitler was an American.
Ri-dic-ulous.
i was wondering- since none of us were around then. how we would have felt in the summer of 41. europe was engulfed in a war against a nazi juggernaut. and many people felt that it was none of our business. SERIOUSLY consider my obsurdity (we need a darn spell checker). we all have the same feelings then as we do now. does it make sense for us to tell our navy to shoot german ships on sight? does it make sense to protect british shipping clear up to Iceland? can’t that be considered war? why should our boys die for them? hitler’s not so bad, all he’s doing is making up for france and britian’s unjust treaty? this is all political, the presidents just trying to find any excuse to go to war.
play along- I’m not making a point here, just an observation. remember we were neutral (officially) and many people felt that roosevelt was pushing us into war with germany (hitler’s crimes were not yet known, and the nazi’s were mowing thru russia). we of course have the benefit of hindsight now, but pretend the outcome was still uncertain. put your arguments to task here.
I naturally would say war. but that’s with the benefit of all the info. pre 45- who knows? what would you say?Yanny - Editted Topic to better reflect the thread.
Actually, some historians believe that Roosevelt and Churchill knew about Hitlers’ war crimes in 1941, but did nothing about them. At that point in the war there was not much tye could do. Others believed they knew in 1943 and that despite some suggestions to Roosevelt to attack the Nazi death camps, the Allies decided not to divert planes from dropping napalms on German cities and to bombing the railroads to Auschwitz and Dachau.
Almost all the European peoples were cruel to the Jews, with the exception of the Danes and the Bulgarians notably. There were other righteous gnetiles, but for every country that had a large amount of righteous gentiles, there was usually an even larger number of people who would rat out on the Jews living in those areas. I have never read anything about Lithuania and Latvia being worse than the Nazis.
The US would have entered the war without Pearl Harbor, though it probably would have taken a little more time.
TINKER/ F_alk-
ok technically I guess you could say hitler didn’t invade he liberated- I’ll grant that.
to the EMU GOd- ok let’s not trap me into another technicallity- many of the inhabbitants of the baltic states did embrace the german’s as liberators and like the nazis were quick to blame their problems on the jews. they not only turned them over to the nazis- they out rightly murdered them. and one of the more dedicated ss units was the ss frei willengen, which I can’t remember but may have even held out til near the end of the war and had to be totally annihalated. also I know at least two of these divisions were exclusively latvian. - I have some ss books I can look up specifics if you want, also see war of the century- they actually had several estonian volunteers on it who bragged about killing jews and children. one of them said he was always trying to be merciful by aiming right for the childrens heart so they wouldn’t suffer-
YEAH I’m barbaric.
ps I wrote crustic earlier today , that was a goof. I meant crystic but have cold hands. I really would like some source articles for these things-
no offense intended
Didn’t some Latvians make up the foreign Waffen SS?
@F_alk:
germany only declared war on us AFTER pearl harbor, and this was only b/c they knew we would declare war on them soon enough.
On of the reasons why Hitler declared war on the US was to show that he still held the initiative in the war, after the winter showed that the USSR would not collapse but had its first successes.
actully Falk he declared war ont he good oll USA cus Japan told Hitler that if he declared war on AMerica they would invade Siberia. but the Japanese did not hold on there part of the agreement just so they would not take the brunt of the American Assualt alone.
alamein, I went back to your original post and i’m wondering if you got the type of answers you were looking for or expected? or did the thread wander?
Both sides weren’t thinking too straight.
Tg actually I did site that at least two of these ss divisions were exclusively latvian- but to answer your question - I did not specify the waffen ss - which is what they were.
Tinker - well I did get a lot of what I wanted. I was slightly dissapointed by some of the responses. and yes it did wander a bit. the reason I originally started it was to see if we could set aside the outcome- place ourselves in the seriousness of the moment- and still formulate the same opinions we currently have over IraQ.
Not to trap anybody- but just to see how deep of a resentment we each carry towards current affiars.
what I mean is -many of us think this war is being carried out poorly. some still side with the president and feel national security is at stake, while others counter various ways, and accuse others of reciting propaganda.
However I think that most of us, with one noteable exception regarded ww2 as a good war. for whatever reason we went to war - the end result was good for everyone- except F_alk who hates me. tyranny was ended and ultimately freedom and liberty have been restored to europe.
so I expected to hear people flip flop on some issues- especially the propaganda- but they didn’t. they stuck with their biased views and condemned or applauded the war, or fronted conspiracy theories- just as they have been doing on Iraq.
conclusion- ??? either it was not a good enough test, or like I have been saying- your reality (truth vs lies) is what you perceive it to be- and cannot be affected easily by facts. Ie unless saddam delivers a nuke to NY, yanni probably won’t budge an inch. :)
