AA Guns

[baron Münchhausen]

@atease:

This post is getting way too complicated.

Is it a post or this tread on AAA topics? :?

My last post was a simple question but I know it is difficult to answer. That’s why I ask everyone for help.
But, I’m pretty sure Larry ask himself this kind of questions when he revised the AAA rule from the AA gun.

@Baron:

Which 1 AAA is the strongest?
1-OOB: 1 single first strike @1 vs 3 planes (up to 1 attack max /plane)  vs

2-AAA as a regular unit: unlimited attack @1 vs 1 plane and no preemptive?  vs

3-AAA: unlimited regular strike @1 vs 2 planes, up to 2 rolls max/plane?

[atease]

@Uncrustable:

@atease:

This post is getting way too complicated.

Your too complicated  :-P

Don’t be jealous!

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable:

Your guys examples are completely off the wall

in order for a bomber to have to fly over 3 aa there would have to be at least 6-9 aa in 6-9 tts to create a ‘wall’ of aa 3 aa deep.
that is, no matter what route the bomber takes it will have to fly over 3 aa

so lets say 6-9 aa guns X 6 ipc = 36IPC-54IPC !!! 3x-5x its damage value per turn!!!

Seriously how f’n stupid would a player have to be to fly over all the tts with AA guns only

Please come up with better examples to support your arguments

Also remember, 9 of 11 capitals with major ICs (including WUSA) border SZs
So really the only region on the board at setup where your guys’ scenario is even possible is Moscow

:roll:

If you take a look on the European map, and suppose you have StrB either in Eastern Poland or Romania, you will see for example that you only need 5AAA to protect Russia (5x5=25 IPCs). Germany is not coming from the East.

http://www.axisandallies.org/p/whats-new-in-axis-allies-pacific-1940-and-europe-1940-second-editions/3632d87-jpeg/

You need 1AAA in Russia, 1 in Smolensk, 1 in Belarus, 1 in Bryansk, 1 in Western Ukraine.
And for total cover, you add Ukraine, if Romania/ Eastern Poland has an Air Base.

However, Caucasus is near the Black sea, so you can bombard Volgograd while flying over 1AAA in Rostov or Caucasus.

Thus flying path of 2 territories away from the targeted territory are not infinite because a StrB must get back home, more than two ways is rare.

[Derek]

@Baron:

@Uncrustable:

Your guys examples are completely off the wall

in order for a bomber to have to fly over 3 aa there would have to be at least 6-9 aa in 6-9 tts to create a ‘wall’ of aa 3 aa deep.
that is, no matter what route the bomber takes it will have to fly over 3 aa

so lets say 6-9 aa guns X 6 ipc = 36IPC-54IPC !!! 3x-5x its damage value per turn!!!

Seriously how f’n stupid would a player have to be to fly over all the tts with AA guns only

Please come up with better examples to support your arguments

Also remember, 9 of 11 capitals with major ICs (including WUSA) border SZs
So really the only region on the board at setup where your guys’ scenario is even possible is Moscow

:roll:

If you take a look on the European map, and suppose you have s StrB in Poland, you will see for example that you only need 5AAA to protect Russia (5x5=25 IPCs). Germany is not coming from the East.
You need 1AAA in Russia, 1 in Smolensk, 1 in Belarus, 1 in Bryansk, 1 in Western Ukraine.
And for total cover, you add Ukraine. (If Poland was conquered.)

However, Caucasus is near the Black sea, so you can bombard Volgograd while flying over 1AAA in Rostov or Caucasus.

Thus flying path are not infinite because a StrB must get back home, more than two ways is rare.

Not to mention if Russia is spending that much on AA it is almost the equivalent of several successful SBRs lol
Germany can use it’s Air Force elsewhere and russia is screwed vs German ground because they bought 3+ extra AA guns. Instead of 6+ more infantry

So far you have been unable to shoot any holes against always on AA lol
I WIN!!!  :-D

It adds to the game and AA guns become cost effecient, but not overpowered

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable:

Not to mention if Russia is spending that much on AA it is almost the equivalent of several successful SBRs lol
Germany can use it’s Air Force elsewhere and russia is screwed vs German ground because they bought 3+ extra AA guns. Instead of 6+ more infantry

So far you have been unable to shoot any holes against always on AA lol
I WIN!!!  :-D

It adds to the game and AA guns become cost effecient, but not overpowered

I didn’t share Cmdr Jen opinion all the way on this topic.

Giving Always active AA gun is a small gift to Germany and Russia for the most.
(Before talking about it, I thought it was very powerful but now I see the limit of this addition to AAA.)

But you have 2 3 aspects of the game mechanics that are weird:

1- This AAA will be the sole unit which fire during the Non-Combat Phase.

2- In OOB now, every battle is in a specific zone, it will be another exception according Active AA gun during Combat Move, because this AAA flied over is part of a different zone.

3- This AAA will get two rolls/plane (1CM/1NCM) to fire against them while, in the main battle-zone, you get only 1 shot at a plane for 1AAA.

I think, if you want to increase usefullness of AAA gun for every country (not just 2 Powers), you should increase it in the Battle-zone combat territory.

It will be simpler for strategical move to add more AAA in a specific country instead of spreading everywhere to try to cover everycorner of this specific battle-zone territory hoping that someone will pass by this other territory. :oops:

Let them be AAA gun for more than 1 opening-fire round and you can be sure they won’t be first fodder casuality.

Did I make some holes in this shining armor?  :evil:

[Derek]

1- This AAA will be the sole unit which fire during the Non-Combat Phase.

-So?

2- In OOB now, every battle is in a specific zone, it will be another exception according Active AA gun during Combat Move, because this AAA flied over is part of a different zone.

-Again, so?

3- This AAA will get two rolls/plane (1CM/1NCM) to fire against them while, in the main battle-zone, you get only 1 shot at a plane for 1AAA.

-This is only IF planes fly over that same AA 2x, and again i say, so?

I have already discussed the rarity of this, the cost inefficiency of this, and the added depth this brings (thinking about where to fly/not to fly your planes)

Always on AA was once an official rule (revised), not some overcomplicated houserule 
You used to think about where to send your bombers, and you used to think about whether or not to send out AA away from bases/ or buy more AA
Now its mindless

[BJCard]

There’s already a lack of strategic bombing in the game anyway, why are you guys making it harder to do??

[baron Münchhausen]

@BJCard:

There’s already a lack of strategic bombing in the game anyway, why are you guys making it harder to do??

I agree with you. :-)
I was waiting this comment about SBR.
You have see the whole picture. :mrgreen:
(Actually, I think both of you help me out finding a HR to increase the number of SBR and interceptions).
It is another point against Active and Always Active AA gun.

And that’s why I prefer to improve AAA in combat-zone first and foremost.

(Because of the SBR, it was one of my other reason to promote the AAA at 1/12 instead of 1/6.
But anyone can keep OOB rule on SBR and in-built IC AAA at 1/6.)

Thus, (with a lesser hit ratio 1/12) I think we get a much more balance and interesting AAA unit:
Preemptive strike still on for the first combat cycle.
AAA keep fodder capacity to take 1 hit.
Up to 3 planes attacked per AAA on first cycle.
Every round after, each AAA got 1 shot @1/12, up to the max of 1 per each attacking plane/ round.
And any plane flying over a territory with an AAA during CM, had a “chance” to be destroyed.

And you can have a HR with Always Active (CM/NCM) and In-built AAA all @1/12.

This way AAA will always be in touch but not overpowered.

Example: 1 StrB his escorted by 2 Fgts.  There is one AAA in the IC territory.
1- All 3 planes must endure the “1” on D12 fired at them.

2- After fighting the interceptors, the StrB endures the in-built AAA fire still 1/12.

3- And if you like Always Active AA gun then the surviving StrB in NCM is under a last fire still 1/12.
(I’m not quite sure for me, but Uncrustable will love it.)

In this example, the StrB faces 3 shots at 1/12= around 3/12 = 1.5/6
Just a little higher odds as a OOB SBR rule.  :-)

The AAA is no more boring, always part of something when planes are near but not that killer 1/6.
That’s all.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

@BJCard:

There’s already a lack of strategic bombing in the game anyway, why are you guys making it harder to do??

I agree with you. :-)
I was waiting this comment about SBR.
You have see the whole picture. :mrgreen:
(Actually, I think both of you help me out finding a HR to increase the number of SBR and interceptions).
It is another point against Active and Always Active AA gun.

And that’s why I prefer to improve AAA in combat-zone first and foremost.

(Because of the SBR, it was one of my other reason to promote the AAA at 1/12 instead of 1/6.
But anyone can keep OOB rule on SBR and in-built IC AAA at 1/6.)

Thus, (with a lesser hit ratio 1/12) I think we get a much more balance and interesting AAA unit:
Preemptive strike still on for the first combat cycle.
AAA keep fodder capacity to take 1 hit.
Up to 3 planes attacked per AAA on first cycle.
Every round after, each AAA got 1 shot @1/12, up to the max of 1 per each attacking plane/ round.
And any plane flying over a territory with an AAA during CM, had a “chance” to be destroyed.

And you can have a HR with Always Active (CM/NCM) and In-built AAA all @1/12.

This way AAA will always be in touch but not overpowered.

Example: 1 StrB his escorted by 2 Fgts.  There is one AAA in the IC territory.
1- All 3 planes must endure the “1” on D12 fired at them.

2- After fighting the interceptors, the StrB endures the in-built AAA fire still 1/12.

3- And if you like Always Active AA gun then the surviving StrB in NCM is under a last fire still 1/12.
(I’m not quite sure for me, but Uncrustable will love it.)

In this example, the StrB faces 3 shots at 1/12= around 3/12 = 1.5/6
Just a little higher odds as a OOB SBR rule.  :-)

The AAA is no more boring, always part of something when planes are near but not that killer 1/6.
That’s all.

To make the rolls simple even with D6 only:
rolls once for every target and if there is no “1” then it’s done and over.

Let’s suppose on 3 rolls from an AAA you got 2 lucky “1”,
then roll again those two dices.
For each dice: 3 or lesser, you got a hit, 4 or higher you still miss.

At first, this weird roll of 1/12 seems hard to catch  :?(and out of A&A system, but not that much), but, if you think about it, its simplify everything for the other aspect of AAA mechanics. :-)

Let’s them shoot everytime and everywhere but at this lower ratio. :evil:

[Derek]

@BJCard:

There’s already a lack of strategic bombing in the game anyway, why are you guys making it harder to do??

I would argue SBR would be the same or even easier. Under current rules all facilities have in effect unlimited AA. You could attack with a million bombers and the defender would roll a million AA dice, even if he moved all his AA to the frontlines (mindless)
Under the classic rules you actually had to have an AA in the territory to roll AA vs SBR.

So with the AAA unit at a max of 3 dice, you can ‘overwelm’ the AA in the tt by attacking with more strat/tac bombers than the defender can roll AA dice. And your opponent cannot just move all his/her AA to the front lines, without purchasing more (i covered this in earlier post)

The only capital in the game (other than france) that can create an ‘AA wall’ (that is, no matter what route bombers take they will have to fly over multiple AA) is Russia. And again as i said in my earlier post, if Russia were to spend that much money on AA then Germany will not even need to SBR and will roll over Russia’s face with superior ground forces (because Russia spent too much on now worthless AA guns)

The reason there is not many holes to be poked in this IS BECAUSE IT USED TO BE THE OOB RULE. UNTILL G40 1st edition alphas one to a zillion came out and Larry decided to change AA rules (to me = ducktape) to balance against German sealion strategies

I am not coming up with some off the wall house rule, this was how A&A used to be played

I believe revised AA (always on, no built in AA) combined with the AAA unit (limited to 3 dice per turn, can be taken as casualty) would add a layer of strategic depth to the game, would increase the effect of AA, not just shooting down planes but forcing air reroutes, while at the same time keeping the game balanced and not making AA overpowered
The ONLY tts that would add an AA gun at setup would be tts that DO NOT start with AAA that start with atleast 1 base and/or IC, and you would only add 1 AA gun per base/IC
EX: Philipine islands would add 2 AA guns.
EX: UK would add ZERO AA guns
EX: S Africa would add ONE AA gun

remember that the only nation that extensively uses its AA guns in an offensive manner is Germany. Currently the game is slightly unbalanced towards the axis (hence allied bids ranging from 3-18 IPCs) so if anything it would SLIGHTLY tip the game towards the allies and LOWER the bid to maybe zero

Now Germany cant just mindlessly send all its AAA units to the frontlines, without the Allies staging SBR from UK and bombing the living crap outta Germany FOR FREE!!!

[baron Münchhausen]

I would argue SBR would be the same or even easier. Under current rules all facilities have in effect unlimited AA. You could attack with a million bombers and the defender would roll a million AA dice, even if he moved all his AA to the frontlines (mindless)
Under the classic rules you actually had to have an AA in the territory to roll AA vs SBR.

Uncrustable,
you really want to make all thoses changes?
You are creating a new set up one way or another. The initial AAA on board were disposable and movable piece, now they must stay near IC/NB/AB to protect against SBR. All 4 AAA inside UK will protect them, but if they are destroy, in OOB UK still have AAgun to defend against SBR. With your change, there is no more. 3 old AA gun are missing.

The in-built AAA is actually the undestructable old classic AA gun with unlimited number of firing but once against each plane made non-movable and defending only this small vital part of a territory.
They were mainly protecting IC.
Now when you pay for an IC it included in the price a classic AA gun to protect this structure alone.

So it implies that the new revised version of Global and 1942, lower the real cost for a bare Industrial Complex (and NB & AB).
That would means, if someone wants to buy a new one, then he also get for the listed price an AAA or 2 depending.

About improving odds for Allies, that’s OK for 1940, but I’m looking for something I could also play in 1942.2, not restricted to 1940 because of some specific qualities.

Suggestion: reintroduce the real old AA gun (you surely have the gray or white miniature) and put it aside IC,NB,AB. Give them the same restriction it had in Classic (undestructable, no plane limits, can be seized by ennemy, no hits value, etc.)
And play it according to the OOB classic rules, and treat them as different way than the AAA unit.

For example, if Japan conquers Philippines, then NB and AB are destroyed but not the 2 AA classic gun.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable:

1- This AAA will be the sole unit which fire during the Non-Combat Phase.

-So?

2- In OOB now, every battle is in a specific zone, it will be another exception according Active AA gun during Combat Move, because this AAA flied over is part of a different zone.

-Again, so?

3- This AAA will get two rolls/plane (1CM/1NCM) to fire against them while, in the main battle-zone, you get only 1 shot at a plane for 1AAA.

-This is only IF planes fly over that same AA 2x, and again i say, so?

I have already discussed the rarity of this, the cost inefficiency of this, and the added depth this brings (thinking about where to fly/not to fly your planes)

Always on AA was once an official rule (revised), not some overcomplicated houserule  
You used to think about where to send your bombers, and you used to think about whether or not to send out AA away from bases/ or buy more AA
Now its mindless

For precision and clarity, do you agree about this distinction:
1- rule: Active AA gun: AAA are firing during CM
2- rule: Always Active AA gun: AAA are firing during CM and during NCM

The first rule was in Revised.
The second rule was only an option in some computer games as Triple A and Iron Blitz.
But it was never introduces in the rulebook of A&A Boardgame.

And if I understand your point: even if it wasn’t in Classic or revised version, you promote the second AA gun rule (Always Active firing AA in CM & NCM) not the first (Active firing AA in CM only), isn’t?

[Jennifer]

Uncrustable,

Russia starts with 4 of the 5 guns that Baron mentioned in opening setup.  Cost for Russia is for 1 AA Gun.

(back to lurker mode.)

[Derek]

Yes it would help Russia, and the allies as a whole

But currently the axis are favored so this would only reduce the bids

[Jennifer]

Anything that reduces bids is a good thing, in my mind.  An ideal situation would be one in which neither side needs a bid at all.  Of course, this isn’t chess or risk or checkers, so it is really hard to get to the ideal, in my opinion.

I’d have to say I would be in favor of the following:

AA Guns:

• Cost 6 IPC (same as a tank.)
• Fire once per AA Gun, per round in normal combat (like infantry fire once per round until killed or the battle is terminated) but only if there is at least one attacking aircraft present.
• AA Guns may be assigned hits as like any other unit on the board.
• AA Guns may move up to 1 space if towed by a mechanized infantry unit (2 if said unit is paired with an armored unit.)  Else, they cannot move.
• AA Guns may fire up to 3 times per gun, in opening fire, during a strategic bombing raid. (like they are now, except it only applies to bombing raids.)
• An AA Gun may be added to the purchase price of a complex for an additional 3 IPC
  Change to complexes/bases
• Bases and complexes no longer come with built in AA Guns
• Airbase/Naval Base prices are now 10 IPC each
• Minor Complex prices are now 9 IPC each
• Major Complexes are still 15 IPC, but upgrading a minor to Major is only 10 IPC

The idea here is to give more power to the gun, make it riskier to move it around, and give the allies an edge since Russia can move the guns up before battle starts and have time to retreat the trucks, whereas Germany has to bring them in on guns and will usually be in range of counter attack before they can pull the trucks back out.

[BJCard]

Thought Major complexes cost 30 IPCs, where are you getting 15?

Regarding battles- what if both the attacker and defender have aircraft, does the AA gun still fire?

[Derek]

@Cmdr:

• AA Guns may move up to 1 space if towed by a mechanized infantry unit (2 if said unit is paired with an armored unit.)  Else, they cannot move.

Ok this is silly and needlessly over complicated
Other than that though I like where your going
Also major ICs cost 30 OOB
I would rather keep it simple though

Use all current OOB rules (G40) for AA guns, with the following exceptions:
-AA cost 6 IPC
-No built in AA
-after opening round of normal AA fire, AA guns may continue to fire during normal combat, providing there are enemy aircraft present, one AA dice per plane OR one AA dice per AA gun, whichever is less

So AA guns have 3 shots at enemy aircraft as per OOB rules
Then once the battle starts each AA gun is effectivly reduced to a single AA dice

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable:

@Cmdr:

• AA Guns may move up to 1 space if towed by a mechanized infantry unit (2 if said unit is paired with an armored unit.)  Else, they cannot move.

Ok this is silly and needlessly over complicated
Other than that though I like where your going
Also major ICs cost 30 OOB
I would rather keep it simple though

Use all current OOB rules (G40) for AA guns, with the following exceptions:
-AA cost 6 IPC
-No built in AA
-after opening round of normal AA fire, AA guns may continue to fire during normal combat, providing there are enemy aircraft present, one AA dice per plane OR one AA dice per AA gun, whichever is less

So AA guns have 3 shots at enemy aircraft as per OOB rules
Then once the battle starts each AA gun is effectivly reduced to a single AA dice

Does “normal” mean no more preemptive? or “opening round of” mean first strike attack?

“AA guns may continue to fire during normal combat”, does it imply without preemptive strike against plane?

Are you taking aside “Active AA gun” for this proposition (or forget to mention it)?

This option is really a killer for planes: after 3 rounds, around 50% killing at least 1 plane.

The OOB fix this around 16.67% for a whole battle:
rising the cost from 5 to 6 IPCs will not counter-balance this.

I suggest an adjustment for taking in balance the ex-built-in  AAA, no value, no move until paying 2 IPCs/each for converting them into mobile AA artillery with 1 hit value.

As said earlier by Cmdr Jen, adjust all structures to add real AAA unit on the board: Major IC gives 2 AAA / Minor IC, AirB and NB= 1AAA.
@Cmdr:

1. In opening fire the AA Gun gets 1 shot at each plane up to a maximum of 3 planes per AA Gun.
2. There are no built in AA Gun defenses on complexes and bases.
3. Add 1 AA Gun to the board for each Air Base, Naval Base and Minor Industrial Complex on the board, 2 AA Guns for each Major Industrial Complex on the board.
4. AA Guns cost 6 IPC, same as a Tank.

About the price for new IC, AB and NB raise their cost by 2 IPCs and let them get 1AAA when put on the board.

[baron Münchhausen]

@BJCard:

There’s already a lack of strategic bombing in the game anyway, why are you guys making it harder to do??

@Cmdr:

Uncrustable,

Russia starts with 4 of the 5 guns that Baron mentioned in opening setup.  Cost for Russia is for 1 AA Gun.

(back to lurker mode.)

I think Always Active and Active AA gun means no more SBR plain and simple.
Because, all other battle are made on the front line. It means that the first ennemy territory is the only AAA fire which come against attacking planes.

Under normal circumstances, no one will risk an attack with aircrafts only against ground units from rear territory. Our Russia with 5 AAA scenario can only suppose a SBR and nothing else.

[Derek]

Yes I said ‘after’
So AA fires like normal OOB rules, and then participates in normal combat
But in normal combat each AA can only roll one dice
And only vs aircraft