Hmm… what is the point of creating Vichy rules if the end result is to not change anything at all?
And if having a role of 1 or 6 add units to either side, then how is that any different? Now you’re changing the game in 1 role without any risk/expenditure to either side? That seems more like a planned imbalance then anything else.
The goal is not to create a disadvantageous ‘boon’ for either side.
It is to have realistic and playable Vichy rules. Vichy should be used by the axis to bolster the underbelly of Europe, so it does not have to commit forces for it’s defense ( at least less)
For the allies, they can use a few more Free French pieces and 3 more pro allies neutrals.
If you want basically roll for expensive French naval units and let the game get unbalanced once again with lottery rules, then it seems to mess up the game. The current OOB treats all post France defeat units as allied controlled forces that fight the axis. The changes reduce the allied advantage and give the axis some options. To further allow rolling of expensive naval units and have them mess up the game as they go axis ( potentially) is too far of a change.
The idea is to provide what the game claims it lacks: “This game doesn’t deal with the German installation of the Vichy government in France” ( p.10)
The goal here is to make rules that would look like they belong in the game, to bolster acceptance and credibility.
Haven’t Vichy France house rule ideas been talked to death on this forum for years, are we that far off from a simple solution? what were some of the past ideas?
Shouldn’t there be some kind of risk vs. reward situation if you are going to create something other than what already exists? It seems in keeping with the idea of re-thinking the Strict Neutral rules. If you are going to re-define the role of neutral nations (and their willingness to join one side over the other) shouldn’t the same metrics be used to determine the fate of Vichy territories?
Shouldn’t there be the same level of “Boon” advantage potentially available to both teams?
I was just suggesting something slightly different. Something that offered both sides the potential for an increased opportunity other than what already exists within the game.
Just curious? Why would you go to any length to create a new set of rules that doesn’t change the game environment at all? Doesn’t create more volatility rather than less?
What’s the point?
Post what ideas you specifically have on Vichy ( like you like to see it). Otherwise we don’t move forward.
I like IL’s suggestion, but I don’t like the re-roll…. is this close?
If Paris is Captured, the following 4 steps must happen immediately:
1. The capturing nation receives all of France’s income.
2. The major IC in Paris, is replaced with a minor IC.
3. The Paris VC token is given to the capturing nation.
4. The France player rolls 1d6 to determine the fate of all French sea units in SZ#93.
1 = The fleet becomes British
2 = The fleet remains French
3 = The fleet remains French
4 = The fleet is removed
5 = The fleet is removed
6 = The fleet becomes German
What is the disposition of land-Air units outside Southern France? ( Like Normandy and colonies).
Need to clarify which areas Vichy and Free French.
What and who controls the French units that “remain French” They may be out at sea…so the ones that roll French need to goto Vichy areas right?
VICHY FRANCE
When Paris falls to Germany in the first round, both Southern France and Normandy automatically become German territories. However, the French infantry, and artillery units remain as the French underground. Germany may collect their IPC value, build units on their factories, and move units into both territories while French units are still there. However, the French units may not move, or be attacked by the axis until the territory is liberated by an allied force.
During Germany’s collect income phase, the French units that remain (if any) may sabotage (convoy rules) @ 1 dice per unit for a maximum of their territories IPC value. France no longer has a turn, *all other remaining French units on the board move during the United Kingdoms turn by the UK player. If Germany wishes to avoid being sabotaged in one or both territories, the French units must be attacked and removed before (or on the same turn) Paris falls.
*Except for the ships in sea zone #93.
After Paris falls…. the UK player rolls a dice to determine their fate.
1 = The fleet becomes British
2 = The fleet remains French
3 = The fleet remains French
4 = The fleet is removed
5 = The fleet is removed
6 = The fleet becomes German
There is a little bit here for both sides… Thoughts?
both
Southern Franceand Normandy automatically become German territory
The Vichy capital is in southern France. To give Southern France to Germany is farcical IMO. Let them attack it like they did in 1942.
words like the ‘French underground’ need to be explained. The entire concept needs fleshing out and language similar to OOB in terms of style.
So also what is the list of Vichy areas?
VICHY FRANCE
When Paris falls to Germany, Normandy automatically becomes German controlled and Germany may use the Factory. However, the French land and air units do not perform non-combat movement and become either Vichy ( strict neutral) or Free French ( controlled UK player on his turn). However, the French Vichy units are considered strict neutral and fight any player that attacks them. They are subject to diplomacy rules. Below is the list of French areas and their disposition:
Vichy Areas: ( strict neutral)
Southern Europe
Morocco
Algeria
Tunisia
Syria
Madagascar
French Indo-China*
*FIC is a special case, strict neutral applies to all nations except Japan. In any case OOB rules prevail.
Free French Areas: ( pro-allies)
French West Africa
French Central Africa
French Equatorial Africa
During Germany’s collect income phase, the Free French naval units that remain (if any) can perform convoy disruptions* @ 1 dice per unit for a maximum of their territories IPC value. France no longer has a turn and all other Free French units on the board move during the United Kingdoms turn. If Germany wishes to avoid convoy disruptions in one or both territories, the French units must be attacked and removed before (or on the same turn) Paris falls.
*No convoy disruptions Free French naval units in sea zone #93.
Once Paris falls the UK player rolls a dice to determine the fate of her Navy:
1 = The fleet becomes British
2 = The fleet remains French
3 = The fleet remains French
4 = The fleet is removed
5 = The fleet is removed
6 = The fleet becomes German
Note: If Paris is liberated by the Allies, Vichy areas become Pro- Allies. France does not get restored as a full player with her own turn functions.
Even though it’s raw, I’m ok with what you’ve got, but I may not be the right guy for this rule. You have more house rule experience and history knowledge about Free France and the puppet government, I may not be able to add much value on this one. maybe some one else can flesh that one out with you.
I really want this……
1. Make a condition in one of Germany’s NOs that the Baltic sea must be free of allied ships.
and…
2. Damaged Battleships can not bombard during an amphibious assault.
@Young:
1. Make a condition in one of Germany’s NOs that the Baltic sea must be free of allied ships.
EXACTLY!! The Swedish Iron Ore NO should definitely include this. I just had a game last weekend with a very odd situation. Russia decided to be very aggressive and purchased some naval units in SZ 115: 1 CA, 2 DD and 3 Transports in addition to the 1 CA and 1 SS they start out with. The idea was to try a sneak invasion of Berlin to end the war quickly. Well, Berlin had too many units but they did manage to invade W Germany and Denmark. The invasion of Denmark was successful but Germany repelled the invasion of W Germany by the skin of it’s teeth (1 fighter left).
Germany got Denmark back and also took Leningrad next round so no more naval invasions were attempted by Russia because they had no way of getting more land units for their transports. With Denmark retaken by Germany, those Soviet ships were stuck in the Baltic sea.
Now, the German NO states: 5 IPCs if Germany controls Norway and Denmark and Sweeden is not Pro-Allied or Allied controlled. Well, Sweeden was still strict neutral and Germany did control Norway and Denmark so this was technically true. However, here is this rather large Russian fleet sitting in the Baltic with nothing really to threaten it. Germany’s navy was almost non-existant at this time and what Luftwaffe there was were needed in other area and couldn’t be risked by attacking Soviet warships that were basically not hurting Germany at all. Don’t you think a sizable Soviet fleet like this would disrupt commerce between Sweeden and Germany?
One other note: Before Barbarossa occurs, or Russia’s Combat Movement phase on Round 4 (when they can declare war on Europe Axis), Russia is considered neutral so those Soviet ships in SZ 115 would also be neutral, not Allied. Therefore, Germany should be able to collect the Sweedish NO during the first 4 rounds even with those Russian ships there in the Baltic. However, once Germany attacks Russia, or Russia declares war on the Axis, then those Russian ships need to be dealt with by Germany for Germany to continue getting the Sweedish NO for the rest of the game.
This would force Germany to deal with them and not simply ignore those ships, which often happens in our games. What do you think? Good Idea?
The Allies ( except Soviet Union) cannot enter the Baltic unless they control Denmark at the start of their turn right?…these are the straights rules already in the rulebook?
Same with Gibraltar and the Medd.
Damaged Battleships can not bombard during an amphibious assault.
yes right. Good idea. But remember Cruisers now have an advantage ( in a way). People might be more inclined to buy 2 cruisers than 1 Battleship because of this change.
@Imperious:
Damaged Battleships can not bombard during an amphibious assault.
yes right. Good idea. But remember Cruisers now have an advantage ( in a way). People might be more inclined to buy 2 cruisers than 1 Battleship because of this change.
Good, nobody buys cruisers in our games.
@Imperious:
The Allies ( except Soviet Union) cannot enter the Baltic unless they control Denmark at the start of their turn right?…these are the straights rules already in the rulebook?
Same with Gibraltar and the Medd.
Can’t pass through the Denmark straight unless you control Denmark, or have permission from the nation that does.
@Young:
1. Make a condition in one of Germany’s NOs that the Baltic sea must be free of allied ships.
EXACTLY!! The Swedish Iron Ore NO should definitely include this. Now, the German NO states: 5 IPCs if Germany controls Norway and Denmark and Sweeden is not Pro-Allied or Allied controlled. Well, Sweeden was still strict neutral and Germany did control Norway and Denmark so this was technically true. However, here is this rather large Russian fleet sitting in the Baltic with nothing really to threaten it. Germany’s navy was almost non-existant at this time and what Luftwaffe there was were needed in other area and couldn’t be risked by attacking Soviet warships that were basically not hurting Germany at all. Don’t you think a sizable Soviet fleet like this would disrupt commerce between Sweeden and Germany?
One other note: Before Barbarossa occurs, or Russia’s Combat Movement phase on Round 4 (when they can declare war on Europe Axis), Russia is considered neutral so those Soviet ships in SZ 115 would also be neutral, not Allied. Therefore, Germany should be able to collect the Sweedish NO during the first 4 rounds even with those Russian ships there in the Baltic. However, once Germany attacks Russia, or Russia declares war on the Axis, then those Russian ships need to be dealt with by Germany for Germany to continue getting the Sweedish NO for the rest of the game.
This would force Germany to deal with them and not simply ignore those ships, which often happens in our games. What do you think? Good Idea?
100%
Then those Russian ships need to be dealt with by Germany for Germany to continue getting the Swedish NO for the rest of the game.
I don’t see the need for this change. The Russia fleet was much smaller than the German fleet and Germany had the area mined for defense to protect her Iron Ore. The Soviet Baltic fleet was mostly mothballed and used for coastal defense, which the game already in a way accounts for this. The Allied ships the NO is talking about are UK/USA. After turn 4, the Soviet fleet should have no effect on this German NO.
The game is already balanced, this change just helps the allies with no compensation for axis. House rules should try to add options and realism without imbalancing the game.
@Imperious:
Then those Russian ships need to be dealt with by Germany for Germany to continue getting the Swedish NO for the rest of the game.
I don’t see the need for this change. The Russia fleet was much smaller than the German fleet and Germany had the area mined for defense to protect her Iron Ore. The Soviet Baltic fleet was mostly mothballed and used for coastal defense, which the game already in a way accounts for this. The Allied ships the NO is talking about are UK/USA. After turn 4, the Soviet fleet should have no effect on this German NO.
The game is already balanced, this change just helps the allies with no compensation for axis. �House rules should try to add options and realism without imbalancing the game.
IL, some changes (like this one) need to happen for better game play, and not always for accurate history. The fact is, the Russian ships are mostly trapped or ignored, they might as well be removed from the setup for as much use as they are.
I teach a lot of newbies at my club, and after I explain their options for those Russian ships, they all say the same thing, “thats stupid”, and I tend to agree with them. It’s either this, or allowing subs to pass through the Denmark straight.
We played this German NO house rule for the first time today, and there was zero argument for it’s introduction, it forced Germany to buy a destroyer and fight them…. no big deal.
I don’t want to see free french and vichy french units the same color blue, and fighting for both sides.
Its going to get confusing.
Honestly I think it would be a better stop gap measure to replace the French units in UK with ANZAC counterparts, and add a UK unit in africa somewhere, and lock all French units in place after France falls.
On a related note, any plans for having Canada as a separate power?
(Merging ANZAC and Canada to form “UK commonwealth” that has 2 separate economies)
