@WILD:
Thanks Variable and koba for your help, I have a pretty good understanding and intent for most of the rules and how things work. I also like that it is a work in progress to a point.
Where is this " HBG Battle Marker Optional Rules 6/1/12" located that koba mentioned? Would like to check it out for the future.
Download it here:
https://historicalboardgaming.3dcartstores.com/assets/images/HBG/HBGMarkers/HBG Marker Rules.pdf
I got my game yesterday, and have set-up the board. It looks great. I see that pro neutral (axis/allied) get to add one inf every two turns if still neutral. Just wanted to make sure that the strict neutrals don’t get this too. I have seen some setups on (game geek ?), and there are more units on the South American territories. I also caught a post from like march that said the neutrals (strict), might get tweaked, hows that going?
PS just saw the Swedish navy WOW, the allies better do whatever it takes to keep Moscow, or the Germans get a Sea lion fleet.
Edit:
Couple quick question. Are any of the the minor axis powers (once activated) able to attack Yugo or Hungary {meant to say Greece instead of Hungary} (before at war w/Russia), or does Germany & Italy have to do the heavy lifting there. Was mainly asking for Romania that isn’t tied to either pro allied territory.
2nd question, is the blitzkrieg move also allow you to double hit with units in sea battles, or is it only for land battles. Can you position yourself in the 1st impulse to hit sea units (Brits) in the 2nd impulse using subs and air etc…?
3rd you are allowed to use newly built units bought in the first impulse to hit stuff in the second impulse right (say a couple bombers)
@WILD:
I got my game yesterday, and have set-up the board. It looks great. I see that pro neutral (axis/allied) get to add one inf every two turns if still neutral. Just wanted to make sure that the strict neutrals don’t get this too. I have seen some setups on (game geek ?), and there are more units on the South American territories. I also caught a post from like march that said the neutrals (strict), might get tweaked, hows that going?
PS just saw the Swedish navy WOW, the allies better do whatever it takes to keep Moscow, or the Germans get a Sea lion fleet.
Edit:
Couple quick question. Are any of the the minor axis powers (once activated) able to attack Yugo or Hungary (before at war w/Russia), or does Germany & Italy have to do the heavy lifting there. Was mainly asking for Romania that isn’t tied to either pro allied territory.The Axis wouldn’t attack Hungary, they are Axis Minors and are activated by Axis units as usual. For Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria– they cannot leave their respective country until they meet the condition specified on pages 23 and 24. If one meets the condition specified, it can be treated as a normal Axis unit and activate/attack other countries.
2nd question, is the blitzkrieg move also allow you to double hit with units in sea battles, or is it only for land battles. Can you position yourself in the 1st impulse to hit sea units (Brits) in the 2nd impulse using subs and air etc…?
Yes. Actions are followed per page 14.
3rd you are allowed to use newly built units bought in the first impulse to hit stuff in the second impulse right (say a couple bombers)
Correct.
Thanks, BTW I meant to say Greece instead of Hungary in my first Q
Fortification question:
Oslo Fortification defends against an attack from any sz, does that refer to only amphibs?
When a fortification says it def from any sz, does that include a paratrooper and other air units flying in from across a sz w/o an amphib??
I’m looking at taking Oslo with inf from Narvic, and air & paratroopers from Berlin (fling across the straight).
Oslo Fortification defends against an attack from any sz
@WILD:
When a fortification says it def from any sz, does that include a paratrooper and air units flying in from across a sz?
I would think yes
Correct. If a fortification lists a particular boarder or sea-zone it defends against, it is a coastal fortress or border fortress. The others, including the new ones that are built, are inland and must be attacked by any enemy units.
Ok let me reword it, was still in thought process before :?
Fortification question:
Oslo Fortification defends against an attack from any sz, does that refer to only amphibs?
When a fortification says it def from any sz, does that include a paratrooper and other air units flying in from across a sz w/o an amphib??
I’m looking at taking Oslo with inf from Narvic, and air & paratroopers from Berlin (fling across the straight). Which of these units would be eligible targets for the fortification, and would this particular attack give +2 to the inf there?
Continuation from dcandf5 a few posts back:
Q: If japan attacks dutch east indies when holland is in german control does this cause a provoked declaration of war with uk/anzac/commonwealth? I understand that all those dutch territories become pro allied because germany attacked holland. Just need some clarification
A: No. Japan would not provoke war with the U.K. in this case. Assuming no other provocations are made, the UK player could not declare war on Japan until turn 3."
I like how the rules for Holland play out. If Germany attacks Holland (to by pass Mag Line), or takes Paris, all Holland territories becomes pro allied (allies would need to NCM in to claim them, and units there). They are most likely to become pro allied G1.
This will allow the UK/Anz to claim the Dutch islands (and units on them) in the Pac which is cool, but Japan goes before the UK.
It is also possible (not probable) that the Germans don’t attack Holland, or take Paris G1, which would keep the DEI a strict neutral. In this case the Japanese would also be able to invade the DEI to capture them by rule w/o any consequences.
Borneo is undefended, and an easy invasion J1. Celebes is also an easy mark w/bombardment.
Japan is allowed to invade the DEI (still Dutch) as pro allied or strict neutrals w/o provoking war w/FEC (UK) seems a little off, but OK that’s cool because that’s how the pro allied & strict neutrals work.
The US would find this very alarming in either case. Shouldn’t a Japanese invasion of any of the DEI while Dutch (as pro allied neutral, or still strict neutral) at the very least ratchet up the US production level.
I propose you add something to the events list that increase US production level by at least +5 if the Japanese invade the DEI when they are still Dutch (either pro allied or still a strict neutral territory).
@WILD:
Ok let me reword it, was still in thought process before :?
Fortification question:
Oslo Fortification defends against an attack from any sz, does that refer to only amphibs?
Correct.When a fortification says it def from any sz, does that include a paratrooper and other air units flying in from across a sz w/o an amphib??
No.I’m looking at taking Oslo with inf from Narvic, and air & paratroopers from Berlin (fling across the straight). Which of these units would be eligible targets for the fortification, and would this particular attack give +2 to the inf there?
In this case, the fortification would not aid Oslo. It is more of a coastal defense fortification that is used to defend against amphibious assault. What you are planning there is the benefit of using paratroops!
OK, got it.
Transports can off load into two territories adjacent to the same one sz in this game (very cool, long time house rule). Just wondering if you can also off load one unit in combat, and the other in NCM from the same transport (from the same sz of coarse). Could you also have one inf do an attack in one tt, and the other NCM in to reinforce another (or the same tt).
Another example:
One transport containing an inf & AA gun off loading to adjacent tt(s). Can you have the inf do amphib (combat), and then off load the AA gun (NCM) into the captured tt (or even a neighboring tt that is also adjacent to the same sz).
Sorry to bombard you with so many Q’s
@WILD:
Transports can off load into two territories adjacent to the same one sz in this game (very cool, long time house rule). Just wondering if you can also off load one unit in combat, and the other in NCM from the same transport (from the same sz of coarse). Could you also have one inf do an attack in one tt, and the other NCM in to reinforce another (or the same tt).
Another example:
One transport containing an inf & AA gun off loading to adjacent tt(s). Can you have the inf do amphib (combat), and then off load the AA gun (NCM) into the captured tt (or even a neighboring tt that is also adjacent to the same sz).Sorry to bombard you with so many Q’s
You may unload the same transport in combat and non-combat as you described above. The only thing to keep in mind is each transport that is loaded in the Combat Phase MUST contain a unit that is going to be used in an attack. For example, you could not load 6 inf on a transport and attack with only one. You would have to attack with at least 3. Otherwise, these transports must be moved in the Non-Combat Phase.Also, the transport used in the Combat Phase could not be moved in Non-Combat.
Last one for now Variable,
The US must end movement in a US tt, a sz next to US tt, or a US convoy zone until at war.
Are there any restrictions for Japan movement like in G40 Alpha+3. Do they have to keep a distance from the US mainland, or Alaska (maybe Hawaii). That sneak attack could actually force the US to retreat through Panama if the Japan navy floats along side it.
Japan navy (or any power) can share sz’s with powers they are not at war with correct.
Question #20 about Japans taking the DEI. I envisioned the DEI as pro-allied but not effecting the US in any way. If there are any UK/Anzac/FEC units in a territory of the DEI and Japan attacks it obviously a declaration of war. Do we need to explain this rule any better?
Question #25 on Japan naval movement in US zones. Im still looking at this but I’m leaning to adding that Japanese units can not end their turn in the same zone as US units or in a sea zone next to a US territory. This will be explained in the next revision of the rules. As for now there is nothing in the rules stopping Japan from moving into US occupied sea zones.
Question #20 about Japans taking the DEI. I envisioned the DEI as pro-allied but not effecting the US in any way. If there are any UK/Anzac/FEC units in a territory of the DEI and Japan attacks it obviously a declaration of war. Do we need to explain this rule any better?
No, that is how it comes across to me in the rules and it works for the most part IMO. Allowing a Japanese invasion of the DEI (while Dutch) w/o any consequences is what feels a little off to me. Maybe just an inf added to def Borneo so that the Japanese can’t just walk in (don’t know for sure, but seems like something should have been stationed there).
Just thought that the US event list could include a direct Japanese attack on the DEI (while Dutch) as well, even if it lowered one of the others on the list (maybe the W Hemisphere to+25). The US wouldn’t have declared war over it, but I think it would have taken notice with blatant Japanese aggression w/oil embargo and all. Not a big deal, just a thought.
**BTW Western Hemisphere can also include parts of Africa, and Europe and small part of Russia in some interpretations (don’t think that is your intent). When you say W Hem you are talking about just the Americas and adjacent islands right. Where would Greenland and Iceland fall in your rules.
Also while I’m on the subject of W Hem, I heard there might be changes to the units placement in 4.1 (upgrade to 5.0). In our first game we found it way to easy for the UK to claim Brazil (which is fine), but to just walk into the other unoccupied S American countries was a joke. We will add 1-2 inf to each of them in our next game so there is some resistance, hope the update will do something along those lines.
Question #25 on Japan naval movement in US zones. Im still looking at this but I’m leaning to adding that Japanese units can not end their turn in the same zone as US units or in a sea zone next to a US territory. This will be explained in the next revision of the rules. As for now there is nothing in the rules stopping Japan from moving into US occupied sea zones.
Ok, we will probably address it with similar restrictions until the rules get updated. Do you have any idea when the units placement and rules update will be. Are we talking soon, or a month from now?
Other things to consider in the update are including canal, and straight rules (don’t remember seeing anything, but I could be wrong). We are using G40 for that for the most part. You have ruled on the Dane straight can be used by anyone while Denmark is neutral, that doesn’t work for the Turks straight though. Is it closed from the start, or is there a trigger? Can subs move through the Gib straight?
Please don’t take these comments as criticism, we are having a great time in our first game and addressing minor things as we go. We are getting a lot of help along the way from this thread (you guys have been terrific).
**Edit, One last thing:
The role of a fighter has really change in this game. Ftrs have traditionally gotten a big def boost. I didn’t always get that because it would take time to get them in the air, but that’s the way it has always been. This game has them as a 6-6 unit. With the 12 sided dice system I would have thought they would def at 7 (not 8 which would be the same as 4 w/6D). As a whole air are pretty crappy defenders in this game. I guess it solves the allies flying ftrs to def Moscow LOL. Just seems strange seeing it be like a flying tank as far as values go on defense.
Is this under review?
Maybe give ftrs +1 from an operational air base when defending the territory the AB is in. An AB would include an early warning radar system that would allow for the +1 def value. Would need to tweak RAF in United Kingdom def to +1 (would also get +1 for AB making it +2).
Even if it was a limited +1 boost to a max of 3 ftrs def territory w/AB (maybe include tacs). Similar to an AB allows a limited number of ftrs/tacs (3) to scramble to SZs.
Wild Bill,
I agree with your statement regarding the South American neutrals having no armies. As for Brazil, like you I don’t have a big problem with the Commonwealth being able to activiate them early on. One thing I wish, however, is that Germany had a small naval presence in the South Atlantic (a cruiser and/or U-boat for example).
I’d like to see clarification on Gibraltar too. We play it as the straight is impassable unless you hold it.
Some addtional rules I’d like to see are:
Blockhouses
Flaktowers
Coastal Battleships (they are in the game but there are no rules indicating their attack, defence, or movement values).
Coastal submarines (same as coastal battleships).
After playing a number of times and going over some of the historical aspects of the game, I suggest airfields be added to Wake and/or Midway island for the next set-up.
As and added note, we played this weekend and it went right to turn 15 with an Axis win.
Was wondering about the neutral fleets. Some say coastal?, some aren’t noted? Can the coastal ships be moved at some point, or do they have to stay put throughout the game (until killed)?
If you activate the territory do you claim the adjacent fleet if it is pro your side. If you are attacking a neutral territory (strict or pro the other side), does the adjacent fleet become activated for the other side (they choose who gets it?) if you haven’t killed it.
Wild Bill,
The country that the neutral is friendly to occupies the territory and claims the fleet(s). That’s how we play it anyway.
We keep ships listed as coastal on the coasts of the countries they started at. If they are moved, they have to stick to the coastline.
From what I understand, if a strict neutral is attacked it becomes a pro-axis/allied neutral. When a neutral is attacked, we have its navy placed on the board (if it was not already during the set-up). From thereon in it acts like a Vichy navy. It does not move but will fight if axis/allied ships (depending on who attacked the neutral) move into the sea zone. If the neutral is “liberated” by the other side and the fleet still exits, it goes over to the liberator. There is not an especially clear rule regarding these navies so we try to glean from the general rule regarding neutrals what to do with them. Hopefully Variable will be clearer than I am on this.
Ok so in case of Recife (Brazil) if UK NCM a ground unit to Recife, then it claims the troops there along with the battleship & transport. Both ships are absorbed (become UK). The transport is allowed to go wherever (not listed as coastal), but the battleship (coastal) has to stay in either sz 55, or 51 along the Brazilian coast for the entire game.
Say Italy manages to get a couple transports and a destroyer to Brazil before the allies activate any of the territories. If they wanted to attack Recife via sz55 they would have to kill the battleship first. So instead they invade Boa Vista (unoccupied) via sz51 with the intention of attacking the inf on Recife next turn. The allies can’t use the battleship in sz 55 to attack sz 51, because Recife wasn’t activated yet, so the BB just watches things unfold. The Brazilian fleet would be stuck in sz 55 until the allies could liberate Recife, or the axis kill it.
Spain could become pro axis if certain events happen (Paris and one of the Russian VC’s are controlled by axis, or the allies attack it). So once Spain is pro axis if Germany or Italy NCM to Seville they would also claim the Spanish fleet in sz36. The sub (coastal) would def or attack only along the Spanish coast line (sz’s 28,32,34,35,36,&37), but the other ships are free to go wherever.
Say Spain becomes pro axis (Paris & Leningrad are captured by Germany). The US attacks Barcelona, and then takes Seville before the axis activate it. The Spanish fleet in sz36 isn’t claimed by the US because it is pro axis right. The Spanish fleet is stuck in sz36 until either the axis liberate Seville (then it can do what it does in #3 above), or the allies kill it.
Say that Germany gets impatient, and attacks Barcelona (Spain) as a strict neutral. The other two Spanish territories become pro allies, along with the Spanish fleet in sz36. The fleet can never become axis now, and is stuck there until the allies activate/liberate Seville, or it gets killed.
Sweden would be like Spain as similar events unfold.
In all the cases you listed, that’s how we play it (for lack of any clarification regarding neutral navies in the rules).
We should ask Variable to include more direction on this in the 5.1 rule set.
