Contested seazone question

[seth4god]

Dear Cow,

1. kcdzim is recognized as one of kreig’s deputies and his rulings are pretty much gold plated
2. The rules you quoted says

this situation requires you to do one of the following:

Staying in that seazone and loading from there is not one of those options. Hence, not allowed.
3. It’s in the FAQ . . . ruling by Kreig himself
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=19919.msg796814#msg796814

@Krieghund:

The only time that you can load transports in a hostile sea zone is in the combat movement phase in which you declare war. �This may only be done under those conditions if the transport started the turn in that sea zone and the sea zone has just become hostile as a result of the declaration of war.

[seth4god]

@Cow:

These rules have been pretty much the same since classic, if germany bought an IC on west germany, it would not stop UK from loading units for the whole game with 1 naval purchase every round.

Even in revised placing a destroyer did not stop germany from loading in contested sea zones. Same with AA50. In fact global would be the first Axis and Allies board that does not allow loading in shared sea zones.

They call it shared for a reason.

No where in the rules does it explicitely state I cannot load transports in shared sea zones.

They’re shared seazones BEFORE a DOW. After that they’re hostile(contested) seazones. The rules were different before in that in the past you could not build into a hostile seazone, it had to be a friendly one. Global/Pacific are one of the newer iterations of allowing builds into hostile seazones. Hence, in say in the classic example you referenced, Germany could not build into the seazone around UK unless it was cleared of allied ships.

[seth4god]

@Veqryn:

what is RAW?

here is my understanding:

You could:

1. move the transport out of the sea zone, pick up units somewhere else (berlin), then move back into the sea zone, and unload them to Norway.
or
2. move the transport out of the sea zone, conduct combat and defeat the destroyer, then move the transports back into the sea zone and pick up the units in West Germany and then unload them anywhere friendly
or
3. leave the transports where they are, conduct combat and defeat the destroyer, (transports can no longer move, since they were in combat), and pick up the units in west germany and then unload them anywhere friendly

please krief, confirm if anything I said is wrong, or not fully right….

I’m not Kreig, but I’m 100% sure that you can’t move the transports in both the combat and noncombat phase. I’m leaning towards no on both #2 and #3.

[seth4god]

To clarify, I’m 100% option 2 is out the window. And I’m maybe 80% no on option 3 since my understanding is that those transports ‘participated’ in a battle and can no longer load during the NCM portion. I could be wrong though.

[moralecheck]

You can only load in a contested seazone on your turn if you just made DOW that caused the seazone to become contested.  That’s clear in the rules (and probably worded much better :D).  That is obviously not the case here.  Option 1 is correct.  The transports can move 1 space out, load and return for an amphibious assault.  The US destroyer’s value here is that it is blocking German shore bombardment (which may well be worth its cost).

[seth4god]

No cruiser or BB shots, but he has 7 transports and the only way Germany can fully load those transports is if he can load from both Germany and Western Germany. One DD to stop 7 more attackers is well worth it IMO.

[moralecheck]

yep. Well played.

[Guest]

The units from West Germany could get to Norway only during Noncombat Movement once z113 is no longer hostile, but not as part of the amphibious assault.  Options 2 and 3 would both be NCMs.

[kcdzim]

@Veqryn:

what is RAW?

here is my understanding:

You could:

1. move the transport out of the sea zone, pick up units somewhere else (berlin), then move back into the sea zone, and unload them to Norway.
or
2. move the transport out of the sea zone, conduct combat and defeat the destroyer, then move the transports back into the sea zone and pick up the units in West Germany and then unload them anywhere friendly
or
3. leave the transports where they are, conduct combat and defeat the destroyer, (transports can no longer move, since they were in combat), and pick up the units in west germany and then unload them anywhere friendly

please krief, confirm if anything I said is wrong, or not fully right….

Only 1 is legal.

Option 2 & 3 suggest movement/combat in combat phase and then attempting to use the same unit again during noncombat. Transports (or any unit other than aircraft) can only be used in one phase - they’re locked down and cannot load/unload or move.

[Cow]

� Leave the sea zone, load units, and return to the same sea
zone to conduct combat (you cannot load units while in a
hostile sea zone)

Yes you cannot load units from hostile sea zones, but this is a shared sea zone. The book refers to this situation as shared sea zones, which happens when an enemy produces a ship in occupied waters.

The terminology the book uses matters. Why make a distinction between shared sea zones and hostile sea zones if it ultimately results in being the same thing?

[Cow]

Also no where in that does it say I can offload units so if no distinction were made, no attacks would be possible.

[Krieghund]

The rules define a hostile sea zone as one which contains surface warships belonging to a power with which you are at war.  Nowhere do the rules define (or even mention) “shared” sea zones.  They do mention “sharing” a sea zone, but that has no bearing on its status as either friendly or hostile.

[Cow]

this rule needs an errata, 1 destroyer stoping a giant fleet is redonkulous, especially for aa50 - one cannot do sea lion before taking karelia. That is pretty lame/gay/cheesy. I guess most people just house rule it for their live games, still if you made a better product it might sell more copies. I can’t imagine doing this to someone, I’d have to put my balls back in the socket and be a tranny if I did. It ain’t right, ruins the whole point of buying naval.

I can only be disappointed in the developers. Maybe that is why most live groups play with house rules.

[Guest]

So Cow, how about all the times a single infantry blocks a territory to prevent a dozen tanks blitzing through it to a second territory?  Or how about all the times a single destroyer stops combat movement of a huge fleet taking Japan or Hawaii?  Blocking is part of the game and you are supposed to plan for it.  Don’t be telling Krieghund the game is BROKEN because you made a mistake in your game with seth.  We all make mistakes.  You should accept your mistake, learn from it and move on.

[soulfein]

@Cow:

this rule needs an errata, 1 destroyer stoping a giant fleet is redonkulous, especially for aa50 - one cannot do sea lion before taking karelia.

that s where ita air kicks in. actually not only in aa50 but in most maps including global ita air can clear naval blockers for ger, making “drop a ship to prevent 20 guys landing strategy” almost impossible for allies if ita sees the threat and moves planes accordingly.

[Cow]

vance ���� you. I just did different attacks instead, the norway battle did not change by much anyway, I got a free dd kill, some other stuff I had to do anyway like stop russian NO on tobruk for a round possibly two who knows. it doesn’t matter.

soulfein this rule mostly bottles japan up potentially. dropping a minor on korea blah blah stops japan from shipping, does make the full pacific kjf strat a bit more tempting for the allies.

Anyway most global games have been going g5 or g6 russia dead, just bomb it with japan… wam bam small’s big world all over again.

Either way global has two outcomes, snooze fest or turkey shoots, but it ultimately depends on the axis how it turns out.

Soulfein, I realize now that guirrilla guy or whatever is not the same one on triplea, so yeah you got to help him out.

I thought japan had pacific in the bag like 5 rounds ago and now I actually have to play and not screw around and do whatever. This is such a trip. I thought there is no way japan can fail a pacific victory.

I should be japan.

vance fuck you again, you are bad shut the fuck up and don’t ever talk to me. i told you this before.

[Guest]

:roll:

[Cow]

of course you roll your eyes. what is your area code?

blocking is one thing. if there wasn’t blocking this would be like another world war 2 game that gets played often. how do you block something that is already there? makes no sense. you can’t block a 3 point shot after it is already in the net. you got to mayweather with the hands before the ���� goes down �����.

99% is stupid, I hope they die along with rush and all those other idiots who just scream non sense.

have a nice day.

soulfein you made a good point though italy only starts with 1 fighter.

hopefully my next game will be a turkey shoot. If I am allies, I am full pacific. If I am axis going to do the smalls big world strat, it works in global. I hate grinding out a win, it is too long and too boring.

[Guest]

What a child.

[seth4god]

Cow, I’m regretting my decision to let your transports skate. So how about you just chill for awhile and not stick your foot into your mouth.