Fighting off Barbarossa from Moscow…

[seth4god]

@Gargantua:

Buying MECH as Russia, EVER, (save the end of the game), Just doesn’t seem like a good idea to me.

Isn’t Artillery hands down the better buy?

Germany will be light of troops at the front because of all the naval buys, but it’ll take you 3 turns for your first buys from moscow to reach the front. By that point, Germany will probably have switched to ground units and be ready to meet your advance. If you can gain control of the front by deadzoning some German terr, you have a big advantage and can collect a bunch of NOs and maybe maintain that dominant position for a couple of turns.

[Cow]

basically if germany goes through with sea lion you want to be ready to attack some territories.

[jim010]

Mec are good for cheap mobile canon fodder.  Also useful when you need to defend a forward space but inf/art buys will get there too late.

[Cow]

mid late game you place them behind russia and hit wherever axis blitz to.

[jim010]

What you buy I would say is pretty circumstantial.

I am in a game right now where I want to stand in Bel and stall the Germans for an extra turn.  To get the German odds below 50%, I need my buys to be in Bel next turn.  That means mec.

[guy]

i think garg put it best:

russia NEEDS germany to attack it, not the other way around

that said, the threat of countering goes a long way

logistically, mainly inf/art is the way to go, with the occasional mech/tank or aircraft

and ALWAYS quintuple-check any counter/strafe you consider as russia.  you need pretty good odds cuz if things go even a little south, it’ll bite you in the arse.

[WILD BILL]

The only way that Russia can be the aggressor is if the Germans are buying a lot of boats, or the Germans split their forces early and try to send half north, and half south. In most games of a strong Barbarossa the Germans  super stack E Poland (sometimes Bess). This forces the Russians to back down because they have no chance to attack, and will surly be wiped out if they stay put. The Russians are already in a pickle because of the marsh, and can’t really defend until the Germans get closer to Moscow IMO. At that point sometimes the Germans lose momentum because of allied landings and the possibility of a Russian counter attack could stall the Germans depending on how hard the Germans are pushing (and if the is Italians involved allowing the Germans to keep air with their troops)

Most German Generals will head south to push into the Ukraine to try and grab the oil bonuses or 2 IPC territories to build more minor ICs. They will normally have 2-3 tpts and maybe a small force to annex Leningrad with relative ease because the Russians are trying to def the south.

A couple of mech will help Russia if they are trying to trade a weakly def German Ukraine, Caucasus, or track down German breakthroughs behind them. Sometimes a mech/tank can get you the Russian NO in Iraq, or Africa to replace income lost through German or Jap gains.

[knp7765]

In my gaming group, we take turns playing different countries by rolling the combat dice. First person rolls all 6 major nations and whatever comes up a “1”, that is their country for this game. (If 2 or more come up “1”, then they get to choose.) All of us just hate it when we get stuck with Russia because it just seems like they always end up getting taken over, even in Allied won games sometimes. Also, it seems like Russia’s game is ALWAYS defensive - basically buying lots of infantry and hoping you can slow down the Axis enough for UK and USA to take some of the heat off. In other words, BORING.

It seems to me like the only way that Russia is able to mount any kind of offensive battles is if Germany goes for Sealion. In fact, since the Alpha +3 rules came out where Russia can attack the Axis if London falls, whomever plays Germany (including me) doesn’t even bother with Sealion anymore. Usually, Germany will take France and sink all or most of the Royal Navy and immediately start building up for Barbarossa. Germany leaves a few men in the coastal territories for defense against Allied landings, some Luftwaffe presence to keep the Royal Navy at bay and perhaps a few subs here and there to help against any Royal Navy threat or to convoy raid England. Everything else starts piling up on the eastern border until round 3 or 4, then a massive attack on Russia.

My question would be, as Russia, when you see Germany stacking up along the border like that, what can you do to properly defend against it? While Russia does have a lot of men at start, there is just too many territories along the front to put up a proper defense. In almost every game that starts like this, Germany is taking Moscow 4 rounds after it attacks Russia. England usually has it’s hands full with Italy and just can’t get enough stuff together to really attack the Germans. USA in most games spends most of it’s resources in the Pacific to smash Japan as quickly as possible. Sometimes this works with USA and the Pacific Allies being able to neutralize Japan quickly enough for USA to really be able to send a strong force over to Europe, usually taking out Italy first and going from there. Other times Japan is a little craftier and keeps USA’s attention longer so Russia ends up being doomed.

So, when Germany goes straight Barbarossa, what can Russia do to turn the tide?

[guy]

i think the real question is “what does UK do to turn the tide against barbarossa?” 
with german resources tied up in the east, UK should shut down Italy, secure egypt, and provide moscow with air/mechanized units. another thing is getting bonus income for russia from iraq, and possibly ethiopia/italian somaliland (this trick is a bit underhanded but hey).

knp, i know in another thread you said you didn’t like the taranto raid, but have you tried it much?

granted i pull an extra fighter off london as well as the bomber, which might leave you a bit open to sealion, but that takes tremondous pressure off russia.

the damage you deal to italy allows you to support the ruskies with much needed hardware for the defense of moscow

i’d say try taranto in conjunction with an egypt lockdown, get as much other there as possible basically

[chagadiel]

Last game i played i built a tank each round plus infantry. i kept the tank stack  behind the front in the south of russia. Its objective was to intimidate and threaten a counter attack and look for an advantage. While my infantry slowly held off the germans the tank stack went south and piled through the italians which were doing really well and helped the uk recover.

[WILD BILL]

That’s a switch, the Russians bailing out UK. Sea Lion game?

[chagadiel]

no but germany with held back from attacking russia for four rounds and britain was alone until america got in.

[Cow]

well if germany buy all naval g1 and g2 then east poland stack looks good, especially if russia bought 6 mech and a fighter (even if germany hits east poland on g3, it is a close battle like really close and russia will have placed men on russia and ukraine on R2 so you will be fine as long as reinforcements come and it is not like all the men on uk will just sit there… they get shipped off sooner or later, plus if russia can take back belarus on Russia 5, then on USA 5 bombers kill all those transports no problem and land belarus, which is hilarious, it is also hilarious when germany goes 50/50 on east poland g3 and loses the battle it is so funny).

plus losing russia does not equate to GG. germany still needs mech/tank to take egypt, marching from russia to egypt takes a bajillion years. as long as you shut down japan in time, you will be fine without russia.

I am only suggesting east poland stack if germany bought all naval g1 and g2. Also I would only do this if sea lion had better than 1/3 odds of working.

Also buy a couple bombers usa 1 to fly into london, because japan should DOW j2… if japan waits till J3 to go to war, he will be saying, “I am not going for the pacific victory or even come close for the first 10 rounds.” So full atlantic to liberate uk and then come back to take care of the pacific. If he hits east poland instead, you go full pacific and japan if japan can’t take out uk pacific then you don’t need russia at all, you got a second russia with uk pacific once you take care of japan.

In general sea lion does not work if allies play right.

Anyway this is a barb thread. There is an advantage to holding bryansk and being able to attack a german stack from it… it forces germany to make one big stack in belarus instead of being able to split forces up or blitz around etc. I like to have 5-10 artillery as russia for this reason, I like having 6 mech around, 1 space behind my russian stack of men to counter attack wherever germany blitzes.

[Alsch91]

If Germany buys all naval on G2, then US isn’t going to have a UK to launch bombers from.
Otherwise Germany’s just kinda dicking around in the North Sea.

[Cow]

well usa bombers are to protect uk. they fly into london to defend. if japan postpones declaring war so usa cannot fly bombers into london… then usa did his job.

[Alsch91]

I was just stating that sinking Germany’s naval with US bombers probably won’t happen, barring bad German planning.

And though I agree a J2 attack is usually better for Japan than a J3 attack, J3 is still very workable.  I think you may underestimate its plausibility a wee bit.  Delaying until J3 is hardly a death sentence for Japan.

[Cow]

it is not a death sentence, but it does make VCs really hard for him. and taking 5 islands on j3 puts transports at risk, much needed transports.

[Alsch91]

Absolutely.
With J2 you can take a couple islands in your initial attack, and take the rest on J3.  Much safer for those transports and doesn’t require much in the way of expensive blocking.  J3 either requires you go slow - painful to do - or to have a couple of your transports be slightly vulnerable.  I agree with that completely.
Once those islands are taken you end up in a similar situation, except that China will be slightly weaker and India will have a few more infantry than J2.  It’s still quite viable, I would say.

Back on topic, Russia’s counter-strategy is dependent on how Germany is attacking.
If Germany’s moving fast with loads of mechs/armor, you’re not going to have much in the way of counter-attacking opportunities, as each time Germany moves forward a space, they’ll still be getting reinforcements.  Turtling is usually a better option, since once Germany finally reaches Moscow, he’ll find that those expensive mechs are no better than infantry for actual combat. 
40 IPCs of mech = 30 IPCs of infantry once the dice start rolling.
And 10 infantry on defense beat 10 infantry on offense.  So an offense made of mobile units gets very expensive.
It’ll take some time for Germany to get some actual offensive equipment in place.  Throw in some allied fighters and Germany’ll be frustrated by how the fastest method isn’t always the most effective method.

If Germany’s going infantry/artillery heavy, then the land game gets much more interesting.  Russia can actually position its forces to make Germany slow down and wait for reinforcements.  Thus artillery or occassionally armor can be a very good buy in this case.

[Cow]

I still believe larry harris forgot to give russia a few infantry

[WILD BILL]

For G3 Barb we see heavy art buys for Germany early on (try to have more art then German inf), followed by mech/tank buys so they can catch up to make the big finally in Moscow. During the battle as you lose your German inf (in the first round), your mech take their place rolling 2’s in the 2nd round keeping up the pace of your attack.

The problem is that you tip your hat to the UK with heavy ground buys from the beginning and Italy will pay the price.

I know this tread is how to def against Barb, but what Germany does dictates that.

If your planning Barb, are most ppl still buying a carrier G1 just to keep UK honest and keep your options open?

Are you attacking G2, or G3?

Are you dropping a major or minor in Romania G1 (G2)?   Maybe an IC on W Poland?

Do you go E Poland when you attack (supper stack), or Bess (Bess is closer to Ukraine, but do you have enough  troops in a G2 attack).

Do you generally have Italy involved in Barb to clear/grab tt ahead of your German stack?