Neutral Blocks Discussion - Delta+1

[JimmyHat]

@special:

Something about the whole Sweden solution still feels very wrong to me.

Isn’t it better to make Sweden an absolute neutral? (not invadable) and change the NO to (for example) an Allies-free Baltic Sea? (abit like the italian Med NO), or possibly that + Axis ownership of Norway.
well its important to get it right.  Can you nail down an area that makes you feel odd?  
By the way, Sweden didn’t have that much of an army, i think…
perhaps not as big as Spains but it was large enough, plus the terrain is horrible.  Hard to represent their and other neutral’s force pools correctly, game balance is better than historical accuracy.

Edit: or just add it to the Iberian block? I don’t see a problem when that would be the case (at least not right away)

As for making Sweden a strict neutral, do you mean just forbid countries from attacking it?  I don’t like that, the game is Global after all.  I thought my proposal would essentially end up with a neutral Sweden.  Allies in Norway and USSR in Finland or Germany preeminent.  It is a bit complex I  will admit however the end result is what’s important.

[special forces]

@JimmyHat:

@special:

Something about the whole Sweden solution still feels very wrong to me.

Isn’t it better to make Sweden an absolute neutral? (not invadable) and change the NO to (for example) an Allies-free Baltic Sea? (abit like the italian Med NO), or possibly that + Axis ownership of Norway.
well its important to get it right.  Can you nail down an area that makes you feel odd? 
By the way, Sweden didn’t have that much of an army, i think…
perhaps not as big as Spains but it was large enough, plus the terrain is horrible.  Hard to represent their and other neutral’s force pools correctly, game balance is better than historical accuracy.

Edit: or just add it to the Iberian block? I don’t see a problem when that would be the case (at least not right away)

As for making Sweden a strict neutral, do you mean just forbid countries from attacking it?  I don’t like that, the game is Global after all.  I thought my proposal would essentially end up with a neutral Sweden.  Allies in Norway and USSR in Finland or Germany preeminent.  It is a bit complex I  will admit however the end result is what’s important.

I’m not saying it is ideal too, but i was trying to find a simple solution and this could be something on the path to that.

And after a bit of reading about Sweden, the economy score idea is not even that crazy (i mean Sweden turning the side pro-neutral to the richest side, once they exceed a certain nr of total IPC’s) since they were doing business with the germans, but kinda stopping to do so when the allies became stronger and germany weaker. The problems here are 1. what amount of IPC’s? And 2. having to count all the time.

Edit: how about the idea to let Sweden join up with the Iberian block?

@Cmdr:

Also, the Russian ships should not prevent the NO if Russia and Germany are at peace.

Yes, that was the idea.

[Young Grasshopper]

I just feel that eliminating Sweden and Switzerland from the neutral blocks rule would solve a lot of problems, and get it rolling a bit.

[Jennifer]

I think it harms the axis a LOT if we remove 20 IPC from the play because they cannot attack the Russian ships in the Baltic until at war with them (which is when they lose their Peacetime Bonus.)    Add to that the realism aspect:  Why would Russia stop the nation that helped them take Poland from shipping materials between Sweeden, Germany and ostensibly selling those materials to Russia?

I’m good with the Russian ships stopping the NO, but I think we need to look at the impact.  All impacts cascade so that the earlier one occurs, the more drastic it is later.  Not as extreme as, this but similarly if you are off by 1 degree on your aim, trying to shoot at the star Alpha Centari - you won’t just miss, you’ll miss the whole solar system.  But 1 degree is such a tiny thing now…

---

Segway

---

Switzerland and Sweeden could be their own Neutral Block, perhaps.  So they stay in the game.  Honestly, I don’t think anyone is attacking Switzerland for any reason, it serves little to no tactical or strategic utility - at least none I can see.

[special forces]

Jen, I think you misunderstood. The idea is that when Russia is not at war, their ships don’t disrupt the german NO, as they are not an enemy at that time.

So while at peace, Germany can get this bonus without problems.

[Young Grasshopper]

@special:

Jen, I think you misunderstood. The idea is that when Russia is not at war, their ships don’t disrupt the german NO, as they are not an enemy at that time.

So while at peace, Germany can get this bonus without problems.

But must do something about them eventually…… it’s easy, either buy a destroyer or give up $5. its not a big deal to Germany + they could use one anyway.

[special forces]

@Young:

@special:

Jen, I think you misunderstood. The idea is that when Russia is not at war, their ships don’t disrupt the german NO, as they are not an enemy at that time.

So while at peace, Germany can get this bonus without problems.

But must do something about them eventually…… it’s easy, either buy a destroyer or give up $5. its not a big deal to Germany + they could use one anyway.

Exactly

[JimmyHat]

@Cmdr:

Switzerland and Sweeden could be their own Neutral Block, perhaps.  So they stay in the game.  Honestly, I don’t think anyone is attacking Switzerland for any reason, it serves little to no tactical or strategic utility - at least none I can see.

Trust me I’ve thought of this.  SF pointed out that adding Switzerland to the Iberian block would help assuage Germany if US attacks Spain.  I suppose putting Sweden in this camp might work, however do you suppose US would hit Spain if Sweden turned German as well?  Also lets look at the end game.  If Germany is contained by Russia, then the US could hit Spain, turn Sweden and then on the following turn Russia attacks Sweden. (or vice versa, capture of Sweden followed by landing in Spain before Axis had a chance to coalesce these forces.

To reiterate Switz is already in the Iberian camp.

Further Sweden is far more concerned politically with Germ/Rus/Uk than Spain.

[JimmyHat]

I have amended my post to include the addition of allied naval units in baltic sea.  Looking back over it I remember an issue that came up with 1C.

It says if an axis power attacks a neutral block while either US or RUS is neutral, that they then can declare war on the Axis.  This might cause an issue.  If Italy attacks Spain prior to war with US, can Russia then declare war on Japan?  And if so, what would happen to Mongolia/instant conscripts/12ipcs?  Is the intention that US/Rus declare war on the offending axis nation, or all axis?  If only the specific nation how are we going to do that in terms of the rules?

Another issue is the wording of the loss of the US 10ipc NO.  I don’t think we should mention anything about league of nations sanctions because that never happened in history when US made aggressive moves.

[Jennifer]

But in history the US didn’t attack nations that were neutral - it wanted to be neutral!

As for Switzerland, I’m good with whatever.  Honestly, it should just be a no-pass, no control zone but allowing it to be taken doesn’t bother me either.

[JimmyHat]

Well, we certainly didn’t set up the army and invade! No sir we’re too good for that.  Much easier to install a puppet regime after we assassinate the current leader, but A&A doesn’t include this function, the US is left with DOWs on neutrals.

[Jennifer]

@JimmyHat:

Well, we certainly didn’t set up the army and invade! No sir we’re too good for that.  Much easier to install a puppet regime after we assassinate the current leader, but A&A doesn’t include this function, the US is left with DOWs on neutrals.

Hey, what the NSA/CIA do is their business!  The United States Government is not in the business of invading non-beligerant sovereign nations.  Right?  :wink:  So we invaded France, Poland, Holland, Italy, Morocco, Tunisia, Philippines, …  lol.

Okay…so that aside, why cannot Switzerland be it’s own little special “no pass” zone?  Yes it’s part of the Ibernia block, I just don’t know why and why it’s important that it be in a block at all.

Also, to clarify (since I’m coding this - at least rough draft to send over to YG for a final proof read) Do the Russian ships stop the NO if Russia is not at war with Germany?  I am specifically saying Germany!  Italy could declare war, but that does not mean Russia is at war with Germany until Russia declares war on Germany.

[Hobbes]

@Young:

NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 1c.
  The Neutral Blocks are:

2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)

A little perspective from Portugal (yes, I’m portuguese) - putting Portugal and Spain together sounds odd considering our stance and our relations with Spain during WW2. Both had fascist regimes and Salazar (our dictator) gave help to Franco during the Spanish Civil War but traditionally it was on Portugal’s interest to ally itself with maritime powers opposing Spain to protect its independence, specially the UK.
So for instance, if the Allies invaded Spain, it would be a really long stretch to think that Portugal would ally itself with the Axis. It would be more plausible that it would automatically join the Allies, if the Axis invaded Spain. As for Spain, if the Axis decided to invade Portugal it would most likely join the effort or at least they would need to gain land passage through Spain. And as for the Allies invading Portugal, that would mean that they most likely would be the next attacked, but this is debatable.
And it would be also very weird for us to go to war with either the Allies or the Axis over Liberia…  :-D

[JimmyHat]

Indeed, just assume Portugal is in the Iberian block for game balance purposes.  :lol:  Each nation should really be in its own block, but that’s too much work.

To Jenn:  Switz is in Iberian block because SF pointed out that Iberian block was still pretty juicy for USA.  Now 2 more inf join Germany if US invades Spain.

On Baltic sz, I think we have to go Germany specific here because otherwise Japan could DOW Russia and then we’d have to worry about Baltic again.  Does it need to be reworded?

[Guest]

@JimmyHat:

I have amended my post to include the addition of allied naval units in baltic sea.  Looking back over it I remember an issue that came up with 1C.

**It says if an axis power attacks a neutral block while either US or RUS is neutral, that they then can declare war on the Axis.  This might cause an issue.  If Italy attacks Spain prior to war with US, can Russia then declare war on Japan?
yes

And if so, what would happen to Mongolia/instant conscripts/12ipcs?
Japan gets 12 IPCs or 6 inf in USSR attacks any Japanese territory

Is the intention that US/Rus declare war on the offending axis nation, or all axis?
they can declare war on any or all axis as they see fit

If only the specific nation how are we going to do that in terms of the rules?**

Another issue is the wording of the loss of the US 10ipc NO.  I don’t think we should mention anything about league of nations sanctions because that never happened in history when US made aggressive moves.
OK. That was only meant for style and irony

[JimmyHat]

One more clarification Vance, are we considering this act by Russia (dow on Japan due to neutral violation) as a provoked DOW or unprovoked?  This having repercussions for other powers and DOW’s.

[Guest]

I am guessing that would be considered Unprovoked.  If the axis attack a strict neutral, USSR may declare war on any or all axis powers, but they do not have to.

As I understand it, the only time a power is provoked without that power or its allies being directly attacked is if UK or ANZAC enter china.  Then japan is provoked even though no one actually attacked Japanese, German or Italian territory.  That’s my guess.

[Jennifer]

@JimmyHat:

Indeed, just assume Portugal is in the Iberian block for game balance purposes.  :lol:  Each nation should really be in its own block, but that’s too much work.

To Jenn:  Switz is in Iberian block because SF pointed out that Iberian block was still pretty juicy for USA.  Now 2 more inf join Germany if US invades Spain.

On Baltic sz, I think we have to go Germany specific here because otherwise Japan could DOW Russia and then we’d have to worry about Baltic again.  Does it need to be reworded?

My map must be incorrect - I don’t have infantry in Switzerland. (My actual map has no infantry in any of the neutral territories, I understand this is supposed to be printed directly on the map.)

Okay…I thought it was a completely useless piece of land.

NOTE:  We’re starting testing on the first 3 rules (4 if you choose to test technology, but it’s not “assured” to be in yet so it’s something that IF YOU WANT TO DO SO, you may).  Please post the game reports in the Delta thread.  If we start getting a lot (because let’s face it, some of us can and do play up to 5 or 6 games at a time) then I might move things over to a dedicated report game thread so as to keep the Delta thread uncluttered.

Think about what is wrong and what is right, keep in mind things are probably going to have to be tweaked somehow.

[JimmyHat]

You can test any rules you want, but the neutral blocks rule isn’t quite finished.  Give me 1 more day.  Preferably we try and use the finalized rules and not some other version you choose, just so we are all on the same page.

EDIT***okay, I think that version on page 18 is a go.  I reworded a few things and also clarified the US/RUS DOW.  Please use this version when playtesting the Neutral blocks proposal.

One issue that may arise is the fact that I am allowing all allied ships to count towards blocking the Swedish Iron Ore NO.  I know this was discussed a little bit in regards to the russian sub, but thems the breaks if you have to gasp purchase a unit in order to protect your convoy routes.  I did also leave that trn’s can block the convoy, however since 1 aircraft or ship could kill that trn without taking fire it seems like this is a non-issue.

[Jennifer]

Jim,

Could you Quote the rule you want below, or send it to my inbox so I can update the main thread with it for “play testing” purposes?

I’ll be gone for much of the day, so it may take a while still.