Would this be at the beginning of game turn or each players turn?
Each players turn.
UK Gov't in exile Discussion - Delta 1
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Jenn you should put together a list of ideas for the exile gov. That way we have a few versions to look at and play test to see if one works better over the other.
I like what you have here and will add comments in red.
@Cmdr:
I see the gov’t in Exile as just that, the UK Capitol moved to Ontario until London is liberated.
- Why are the limited to just Canada?
- If they are limited to just Canada, what’s the point?
arguably the only real point is to give the UK player something to do. 7ipcs isn’t going to largely affect the game.
I don’t think Canada should start with any money. Whatever they saved from England is lost paying to move the government and creating a government in Canada. The rest is captured by Germany, Italy or Japan when London falls. Basically, like any other capitol which makes sense to me.
I agree.Canada collects on the next round for all liberated territories, again, just like if you liberated the British capitol, which makes sense to me.
Likewise, they can use any British complexes currently in British control, as any capitol would.
Given these conditions, it is reasonable for Canada to expect to make as much as Australia or India for a few rounds at least, until the Axis can take away enough land.
Well, with these options I don’t see why Canada would need extra production, Safrica still being viable. I think this is going to make UK really tough, they will have the ipcs to still fight in Africa and defend the Atlantic. Perhaps by adding in Vance’s idea of dropping the sz109 convoy and adding the London NO for Germ will offset this? UK also losses production for a round and we could give Canada no NO’s. Its an intriguing idea and I think valid if we can make sure Canada isn’t super-powerful.Basically, the idea is it is the British capitol once London falls, but to penalyze them for losing London (and to negate the benefit of just abandoning England and letting the Axis take it free) is they lose the entire treasury.
UK should never be tempted to abandon London and head for Canada…I think the penalty may have to be more harsh.
EDIT: deleting the convoy zone for 109 is a great idea, but going to be hard to sell and keep track of. Now we have to mark when a convoy zone is ‘inactive’, any ideas?
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Or we could just tweak one of the more popular versions that already exists. It’s like when Tuco from the good the bad and the ugly, made himself a great gun from the parts of average guns.
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No reason for Jenn not to put together a list of ideas for an alternate exile rule. Through playtesting we can see if one is better than the other. Or perhaps meld the two, we shall have to see:)
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@Vance:
UK Europe government in exile - version 6 (Germany takes all IPCs, Canada only).
If London is captured by an axis power, the capitol of UK Europe moves to Ottawa, Canada. When an axis power captures London it collects all of the UK Europe IPCs. On its next turn, and as long as London is occupied, the UK government in exile will collect income for Canadian territories. The government in exile will mobilize units only in Canadian industrial complexes. Because trade with Great Britain ceases while London is occupied by the axis, sea zone 106 ceases to be a convoy raid zone until London is liberated. At the Collect Income phase of the UK Europe turn following the liberation of London, the government of UK Europe returns to London and income is collected for all UK controlled territories on the Europe map.
I wanted to add that Canada doesn’t trade exclusively with UK, i don’t see why SZ106 would have to be neutralised.
(edit for clarity)
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As Jenn suggested, suppose the UK Gov’t in Exile collects for UK territories on the entire Europe map starting the turn after London falls.
If you were to go with that, maybe something could be added on the axis side for when Rome falls. What if Germany automatically takes over control of all Italian territories and collects income for them starting the turn after when Rome falls?
Would that sort of even things out a bit? Both sides having a gov’t in exile rule?
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@special:
@Vance:
UK Europe government in exile - version 6 (Germany takes all IPCs, Canada only).
If London is captured by an axis power, the capitol of UK Europe moves to Ottawa, Canada. When an axis power captures London it collects all of the UK Europe IPCs. On its next turn, and as long as London is occupied, the UK government in exile will collect income for Canadian territories. The government in exile will mobilize units only in Canadian industrial complexes. Because trade with Great Britain ceases while London is occupied by the axis, sea zone 106 ceases to be a convoy raid zone until London is liberated. At the Collect Income phase of the UK Europe turn following the liberation of London, the government of UK Europe returns to London and income is collected for all UK controlled territories on the Europe map.
I wanted to add that Canada doesn’t trade exclusively with UK, i don’t see why SZ106 would have to be neutralised.
(edit for clarity)
Agreed, in fact I thought we were talking about sz109 because resources would not be flowing in from the empire anymore and therefore no need for Germany to protect that convoy zone. Vance, why do you have 106 as not being a convoy zone?
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@Vance:
As Jenn suggested, suppose the UK Gov’t in Exile collects for UK territories on the entire Europe map starting the turn after London falls.
If you were to go with that, maybe something could be added on the axis side for when Rome falls. What if Germany automatically takes over control of all Italian territories and collects income for them starting the turn after when Rome falls?
Would that sort of even things out a bit? Both sides having a gov’t in exile rule?
hmmm, now were talking about an ‘exile gov’ rule for each country….I think this should be exclusive to UK, due to their ‘empire’, and it shouldn’t be too powerful because then it has a good chance of upsetting the balance of the game…I do think 7 ipcs seems weak, everyone else has a 10 base.
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z106 is where materiel was shipped from Canada to UK during the war. Those Altlantic convoys were a very one way trade, with full ships going from Canada to Britain; empty ones coming back. All that would stop when UK falls.
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I think this should be exclusive to UK, due to their ‘empire’, and it shouldn’t be too powerful because then it has a good chance of upsetting the balance of the game….I do think 7 ipcs seems weak, everyone else has a 10 base.
I agree. The Italy thing would be as a counter Jen’s much more ambitious idea. At some point though, we wouldn’t be playing Axis & Allies anymore, but some other game altogether.
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@Vance:
I think this should be exclusive to UK, due to their ‘empire’, and it shouldn’t be too powerful because then it has a good chance of upsetting the balance of the game….I do think 7 ipcs seems weak, everyone else has a 10 base.
I agree. The Italy thing would be as a counter Jen’s much more ambitious idea. At some point though, we wouldn’t be playing Axis & Allies anymore, but some other game altogether.
It should definitely stay UK-only, i guess the reason for the Gov in exile is mostly that London can fall so early in the game. As for Italy, that could never be teh case.
As for the idea of giving Canada all UK’s territory, that would result in never having a Sea-Lion again, i think. Big part of the incentive for Axis to do Sea-Lion is to take out 1 Allied power for some time (which has a price since it risks letting Russia to get strong. Not having UK fall + strong Russia sounds like a very bad deal for germany.
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@Vance:
z106 is where materiel was shipped from Canada to UK during the war. Those Altlantic convoys were a very one trade, with full ships going from Canada to Britain; empty ones coming back. All that would stop when UK falls.
Mmm, but if so, giving Canada IPC’s extra should be completely out of the question. They should stay weak, just have a little bit of IPC’s to have a bit of defence or to build up some units to sail to the UK after USA liberates it.
Even if the convoy zone stays active, Germany still has to bring over fleet to disrupt it, in a dangerous place (closeby USA forces), chances it will actually happen are particularly small.
… so i guess the convoy zone is not that relevant, but giving extra IPC’s? That is just wrong.And for defence, they are next to the giant of the game, so even that shouldn’t really be a big issue.
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@special:
giving Canada IPC’s extra should be completely out of the question. They should stay weak, just have a little bit of IPC’s to have a bit of defence or to build up some units to sail to the UK after USA liberates it.
yep, so $7 should be just about right on target. It would not be a game breaker.
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@Vance:
@special:
giving Canada IPC’s extra should be completely out of the question. They should stay weak, just have a little bit of IPC’s to have a bit of defence or to build up some units to sail to the UK after USA liberates it.
yep, so $7 should be just about right on target. It would not be a game breaker.
that’s what i think as well, yes.
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It does seem like a good price, going to be hard to support fleet units as Canada but they shouldn’t need much other than a dd/trn, and can possibly be ‘loaned’ units from India.
On the Canadian NO idea, it would be a good way to get them a few more ipcs, but I can’t come up with a good one!
What do people think of my idea of negating the convoy zone off UK while London is German controlled in order to offset the advantage to the allies of getting Canada? Reasoning being that massive resources are not flowing in from the empire, and everything being ferried from the continent is coming across the English Channel.
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Hey ya know what I would do as UK in exile with my $7?
Build 1 sub per turn, float last turn’s sub over to z109 or z119 and make Germany either suffer convoy damage or build destroyers. Every destroyer I sink will cost them $8 to replace, which is exactly what they earn for UK + Scotland.
That scenario balances sea lion. Here’s why:
Germany takes France G1 and blows the windfall on transports G2.
Then they sea lion G3 for another windfall, but waste a lot of IPCs worth of units doing it
Sounds like a wash to me.
Now they get an extra $8 a turn but it all goes to either convoy damage or destroyers
It’s a wash.Government in exile at $7 balances sea lion.
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Jimmyhat, I think if they are not collecting IPCs for territories in Africa etc., then they have kind of already lost was being shipped into UK thru z109. The shipping lanes from Africa and the middle east to Britain would be just as empty as the one from Canada to Britain.
I guess what makes z106 different is that it normally represents shipping leaving Canada, but z109 represents merchant shipping coming into Britain.
Once Germany owns the British isles, the trade goes from UK and Scotland to the continent and not so much to other way around. So a convoy raid in z109 would diminish the goods being extracted from Britain by the Germans. I guess I would say leave z119 and z109 as convoy zones
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This is how I would imagine a good UK Government in exile rule, and although many of these ideas have already been expressed in this thread, I thought I would put together my own wish list.
UK Government in Exile (Version #9)
If an Axis power captures London the following things will happen.
1. The axis power controlling London will receive all of UK’s (Europe) IPCs
This is the rule for every capital that falls and I see no point in complicating things with some sort of situational exception, and if Germany or Italy takes London with great losses, than it deserves all the UK cash.
2. Quebec immediately becomes the new capital of the UK (Europe).
Yes, technically Ottawa should be the new capital. However, on the game board, Quebec already has a minor IC and is adjacent to 3 different sea zones, besides the city of Ottawa and the Province of Quebec is only separated by a narrow river (so lets not have any hang ups about location)
3. America and the Soviet Union immediately enter the war.
No point in changing the Alpha+2 rule regarding America, and I think we can all agree to incorporate the alpha+3 rule about Russia joining, because Joseph Stalin would be more than concerned by the rapid growth and continental supremacy of the axis powers.
4. All French units immediately become German units (even if London falls to Italy). For example: a French destroyer becomes a German destroyer and a French infantry becomes a German infantry all in the location they occupied at the time of capture.
With the UK government thrown back across the Atlantic, the French army accepts the puppet government in Paris and begins fighting for the Germans.
5. Sea zones #109 & #119 are no longer convoy disruption zones. However, sea zone #110 has now become a convoy disruption zone.
There would never be a reason to send supplies to England while London is under axis control, even if the allies wanted to send materials to Scotland, it would be a suicide mission with the massive concentration of axis military activity in the area. Conversely, the English channel has become a vital waterway for Axis supplies and is now vulnerable to allied disruptions.
6. Scotland will become a pro-allied neutral territory with a standing army of 4 infantry + any British units that were in Scotland during the capture of London.
The people of Scotland would feel abandoned, and they won’t be motivated to send taxes across the ocean, instead they will become a pro-allied neutral territory for all intensive purposes.
7. The British Government will be able to return only once. If the UK or an ally liberates London, the government has the choice when to return to England. If London falls a second time while the government is there, they will not be allowed to exile again.
the specifics of this will need to be worked out.
Additional clarifications:
The UK government in exile will not be able to purchase units until the next round, after they collect IPCs at the end of their next turn.
it sucks for Germany that the UK still get to buy stuff, but at least they have to wait a round.
The UK may collect income for all original territories they control on the Europe side of the board.
Scotland, and any other neutral territories that were controlled by the UK at the time of occupation do not generate income for the new government.
The alpha+2 German national objective of, $5 each turn Germany has control of London, has now been changed to each turn an Axis power has control of London.
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The people of Scotland would feel abandoned, and they won’t be motivated to send taxes across the ocean, instead they will become a pro-allied neutral territory for all intensive purposes.
HAHA! I bet none of the conquered peoples are going to be motivated to send taxes…unless forcibly motivated.
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@Vance:
Jennifer, can you please give provide a version of the Gov’t in Exile rule that you would support? If you do that I will add it as “Version 9” to the poll and everyone can vote on your idea. thanks.
I thought I had given one, Vance.
Here’s my vision of British Government in Exile.
1) Some axis power takes London.
2) That axis power collects 100% of London’s treasury, per standard rules.
3) The British capitol is re-established in Ontario using the same rules as one uses for liberating a capitol.
4) (does not have to be, but I would like it to be:) 1 Minor Industrial Complex is added to Ontario to represent the new Government.
5) Ontario now collects for all British holdings on the Europe board until London is liberated.Should London ever be liberated, then it cannot go into exile again. So if it falls a second time, that’s it, no more England.
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Jimmy,
I don’t see why we need to drop the SZ 109 convoy. It works great for Germany until they get London and then it works for the Americans (assuming Germany lets them get there.)
I concede adding London back as an NO.
Jenn you should put together a list of ideas for the exile gov. That way we have a few versions to look at and play test to see if one works better over the other.
I like what you have here and will add comments in red.
@Cmdr:
I see the gov’t in Exile as just that, the UK Capitol moved to Ontario until London is liberated.
- Why are the limited to just Canada?
- If they are limited to just Canada, what’s the point?
arguably the only real point is to give the UK player something to do. 7ipcs isn’t going to largely affect the game.
I don’t think Canada should start with any money. Whatever they saved from England is lost paying to move the government and creating a government in Canada. The rest is captured by Germany, Italy or Japan when London falls. Basically, like any other capitol which makes sense to me.
I agree.Canada collects on the next round for all liberated territories, again, just like if you liberated the British capitol, which makes sense to me.
Likewise, they can use any British complexes currently in British control, as any capitol would.
Given these conditions, it is reasonable for Canada to expect to make as much as Australia or India for a few rounds at least, until the Axis can take away enough land.
Well, with these options I don’t see why Canada would need extra production, Safrica still being viable. I think this is going to make UK really tough, they will have the ipcs to still fight in Africa and defend the Atlantic. Perhaps by adding in Vance’s idea of dropping the sz109 convoy and adding the London NO for Germ will offset this? UK also losses production for a round and we could give Canada no NO’s. Its an intriguing idea and I think valid if we can make sure Canada isn’t super-powerful.Basically, the idea is it is the British capitol once London falls, but to penalyze them for losing London (and to negate the benefit of just abandoning England and letting the Axis take it free) is they lose the entire treasury.
UK should never be tempted to abandon London and head for Canada…I think the penalty may have to be more harsh.
EDIT: deleting the convoy zone for 109 is a great idea, but going to be hard to sell and keep track of. Now we have to mark when a convoy zone is ‘inactive’, any ideas?
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