Gargantua (Allies) vs Commander Jennifer (Axis) Russia Test

[Jennifer]

And yes, the same mistake was made in JMite’s game, it was the same text file that was grabbed.  I have not made it in EM’s or ???'s games because I didnt have the text file yet.

[Gargantua]

We can leave it as is, but then you are agreeing that your only option to perhaps save the game requires Germany to fail to paste the NCMs from Denmark to W. Germany.  That seems a very weak argument and would derail your entire argument that Russia can stand alone against Italy, Germany and Japan without any outside help from the other allies. (Which is the opposite to my argument that i have been making for at least a week now.)

I agreed to play the game it was meant to be played.  You goofed.  And you goofed the same way, in a bunch of your other games, that’s a fault in your own strategy, not the game, not me, not the rules.

If you can’t continue, then you are admited your goof has cost you the game, start a new one.

And for the record I never “claimed” that Russia can stand alone.  I just said they aren’t “Weaker” in Alpha +.3, please get the facts straight.

IF what you are saying is true, and that this was an oversight,  then why didn’t you post it, when you posted the re-moving of your transport???

Because it wasn’t an oversight, it was your plan all along, and it was poor planning on your own part.

[Gargantua]

IL is not an impartial moderator.  And does not play the game.  Therefore cannot Moderate.

[Jennifer]

There were a few over sites on Germany 1…transport was one of them.

Anyway, I said I would keep going as is, I just offered you options in the spirit of the game test.  If you left a single infantry blocking Bryansk and I had italian units to attack it with a few dozen German armor behind it, that would result in a premature ending of Russia, I would warn you too, it violates the spirit of the test…

At least, I thought we wanted to test to see if Russia could withstand the Germans, Italians and Japanese.  We didn’t want to find minor errors.  Yes, there is a decent chance you can land an infatnry in W. Germany and drop the complex to a minor.  It won’t really change too much since most of Germany’s builds are limited to about 10 units given their finances with a few rounds of 13-15 units more than able to be soaked by 3 minors and a major in Europe.

I didn’t even bother requesting it in Jmite’s game for two reasons:  It isnt a concept test and he had already rolled the Allies so major changes would have to occur.

However, if you honestly think that your only chance to win is to exploit this hole (which has been closed and iwll never occur again, so an exploit at best would only give you a single game win, not the morale ground to state that the Kill Russia concept is flawed) then maybe we need to explain that to the public at large.  That’s all I am saying, really.  In any normal game, I would just pick up and go. (Proof:  Only other game with the hole, the one against JMite, I picked up and kept going.)

If you want to continue with US/China/England/Australia then go ahead.  I’ll assume you either conceed the only winning move for the Allies is for Germany to make a mistake or that the allies really can win even without a German mistake.

For the record, in both cases:  the 2 German infantry from Denmark end up in Berlin on Germany 2.  Either by transport if left in Denmark or by walking through W. Germany if changed.

[Jennifer]

@Gargantua:

IL is not an impartial moderator.  And does not play the game.  Therefore cannot Moderate.

Then you are stuck with DM and he has only played one game of Global 1940.  I’m your only moderator on the boards with extensive experience in the game.

I await either the start of England, or a revisal of Russia.

[Gargantua]

This is about principle as well, because if you make oversights like this right out of the gate, you are GOING to make more of them.  It’s not going to slide.

If you ended your turn, and the other player posted theirs,  and you posted your NEXT turn, it’s WAY too late to make changes.

End of story.

Admit defeat or Play.  I don’t have to agree to anything, or play any mind/word games. I’m just here to play a fair game of Axis and Allies.

You had ample oppurtunity to review your moves, you took the time to point out that you were agreeing with the transport move as an “error” before Japan’s turn.  You proceeded with Japan’s turn.  It’s the US’s turn now.  It’s too late.

I’m not willing to break the rules of the game, based on any “conditions” you surmise, and I am held to the same standard as you.

Your NCM and Battlemap, very specifically aligned all of your planes in HOLLAND.  That is the decision you made.  Dice have been rolled, and purchases have been made.  Wether or not you are willing to “go back in time” is irrelevant.  It never works, and it screws up everygame the moment you do that, so I don’t allow it.

Case Closed unless DM says otherwise.  You can ask for a second game, after you conceed defeat, or achieve victory in this one.

[Jennifer]

So are you going to roll America or what?

I’ve told you how i see it, and how I will argue it if things dont work out as planned.  “A minor mistake due to copying and pasting the non-combat movements lead to a British exploitation of the game board during a testing game.  My opponent refused to alter the game board to make the test more valid, since the issue would never arise again.  So we cannot really use this game as evidence for or against whether or not Russia can single handedly stop the Germans, Italians and Japanese from destroying it.”

[Jennifer]

Oh, and if at all possible, I’d like a second and third game if this wins.  Just so that we know it wasnt a fluke of the dice that caused Russia to lose or Germany to win.  If you cannot acommodate then that’s just life.  I’ll have other games going (already have 1 other one) testing the same practices.

[Gargantua]

The correct wording should and will read

“A deliberate oversight during the non-combat movements lead to a British oppurtunity on the game board during a champion rights game.  Gargantua refused to alter the game board after dice had been rolled and purchases made.  To set a precedent incase the issue would never arise again.  As these kinds of things happen in face to face games, this can be considered a valid game for use as evidence for or against whether or not Russia can single handedly stop the Germans, Italians and Japanese from destroying it.”

I’ll post later tonight, I do not have the “facilities” to do so at the moment.

[Jennifer]

Facilities??  you need a washing room to post?

It was not a deliberate oversite, it was a common every day error that was corrected before any dice that might have been effected were thrown.  You refused to alter the game board because you fear you will lose if you do so.  I cannot blame you.  Russia doesnt stand a chance unless there is a copy/paste error and even then, they probably still don’t stand a chance.  I also really dont want to have to be a sea lawyer to play a game.  I doubt you do too, but yet, you are stearing the game in that manner…what typos will count?  So if you throw one less die than you are supposed too, I get to say it stands because it was a “deliberate error” on your part?  What if you mentally screw up Malta and Malaya and use the wrong country name when doing a movement?  Does that invalidate your move because it was a “deliberate error” on your part?  As I said, if you accidentally screw up your defense, was it a “deliberate error” on your part?  What if you fail to place your units?  Does it stand because it was a “deliberate error” on your part?

You see what I am getting at?  We can turn what should be a friendly game that is testing a strategy into an excruciating experience because no one gives anyone latitude in an effort to really TEST what is going on.  This is not a tournament game, it is not a league game.  It is a concept test…There should be LOTS of latitude and collaboration with many rewinds to see if doing something different would alter the outcome.

[Gargantua]

I’ve been very clear, there is lots of latitude.  The transport for example was a glaring error.  It didn’t move on the battlemap, but did on the text file, and you posted as such BEFORE Japan moved.  No problem.

Your aircraft, you were very adamant about.  They were both on the map, and on the post.  The Denmark infantry didn’t move, one “could” argue a case there.

However, things went too far along.  If they change now, it invalidates the whole game.  You literally didn’t change your move until seeing Jmite post his response to your move.  Then you realized it was a bad move.  Now you want to change it.  That’s not a mistake.

That’s you trying to cover up a BAD MOVE, as a mistake.  It’s DISHONEST.  That’s why I am very resistant to it, and not willing to budge.

I like to play friendly too, and I’m very forgiving, but I can’t in good concience let your change your moves after you realize they are BAD from another game, unless I haven’t posted my turn yet, or, dice haven’t been rolled.  Regardless of anything.

If this was F2F, the allies would already be done, and the moves would be exactly as they are, your bad move made, and that is the PREMISE of playing online, you are supposed to be trying to make it as much like a F2F game as possible.

You threw the gauntlet down.  It’s a straight up rights challenge.  Welcome.

[Jennifer]

Transport HAD to move to justify the NCM.  That’s really a non-starter.

Infantry were on my text, fighters should be needed due to the transport…

Guess this is going to be a Sea Lawyer game though…so much for having fun, and testing things out, maybe making adjustments retroactively to see if there is a way to actually make Russia strong enough to STOP the axis from defeating it.

[Gargantua]

This game is about PUNISHMENT, who gets to deal it, and who gets dealt it.

We’ll see how she goes… post coming soon!

[Jennifer]

@Gargantua:

This game is about PUNISHMENT, who gets to deal it, and who gets dealt it.

We’ll see how she goes… post coming soon!

As I said, can recover, not optimal, and shoulda been a game about exploration, but oh well…you want Sea Lawyer,I can play Sea Lawyer…/sigh

[Axisplaya]

I’m going to give my 2 cents about this situation (even if it hasn’t been required ! :evil:)

Garg: you are a great player. Everybody knows that. I know you are right about the rules and what has been done in this game, but……

You shouldn’t need to blow her sz112 fleet and take Wger (downgrade the IC) to prove your point. You would never have that possiblity in a “normal” game anyway…

I know you are right, dices have been rolled and NCM have been declared etc…

But why not let her modify her NCM ? That would make this much much more interesting to watch and that would give this playtest some value.

Just my 2 cents.

[Jennifer]

He’s trying to prove a point.  The day will come when he forgets to place his units and his capitol will fall because of it and I’ll just say “Well, you didn’t want to let me adjust my move, and dice have been thrown.”

[Gargantua]

My problem is that in my opinion she is being dishonest, and that’s bad play that deserves retribution.

She says it’s a mistake/oversight.  That’s a plain lie.  I HATE being lied to, the evidence shows it’s a concious BAD MOVE.  She won’t admit it.  Jen likes to dig her heels in, on the most inane and insane items, and I won’t give her quarter, she’ll never “lie down” so to speak.  And she caught it too late.

I have a F2F policy that I don’t re-write history  Ask Canuck 12…. when either purchases have been made, or dice have been rolled - It’s too late.  I apply that here.  And expect no less than the same standard.

If you want a “friendly game” then start a new one, with the title friendly game.

To even entertain Jen’s request, we have to ditch Japanese turn, and then I have to reconsider my entire Russian move, and purchase because of the adjustments she wants to make.  Why is that my problem?  And then she gets to re-move all of her Japanese pieces? And roll new dice?  What the hell?

Say her Japanese dice were ABYSMAL.  And this stunt gets pulled, then what?  then I’m inclined to do it, because I get more pieces on the board?  No, that would be bad form on my part.

The Policy is,  history doesn’t get rewritten.  And the whole concept of this being a “test” is news to me.  Someone threw the glove on the table, this is a fight to the death over bragging rights.  So this one counts.

If you honestly feel I’m being unjust, call it a rule/policy draw, because we clearly have a different understanding of how the game should be played, and go and start the whole game over…  It’s the only way to be fair and sure.

This option has only been presented to me, in the form of “I have to admit defeat”  which is horse dung, and MORE dishonest play.  I’ve made a single national move, and my opponents total lack of oversight and regard is being marketed as my problem?

Look at the position I have been put in, Axisplaya, and tell me that’s reasonable?  By the way, I’m going to move units from 2 turns ago, after your move, but before your next, and will re roll some dice, that are more convienient than others to re roll.  And if you don’t like it, you can choose to lose.

Junk.

Well Jen?  What are we doing with the ball?

1. I post America etc - whats done is done.  We move forward.

2. You state that there is a misunderstanding of policy, and consider the game Null + Void, starting a “new one” with your correct movements. With the Title “friendly” included.

3. Conceed.

[Jennifer]

The two infantry moving from Denmark to W. Germany didn’t get copy pasted.  I add in the cash count after I paste in, since I type quickly.  I dont need to reference the map to make sure I get the country names correct when counting my money since it really does not matter, just what NO you are getting and there are few of those with simple names, unlike some of those Mongolian countries.

Figured in the interests of fair play, I’d also ask for a couple fighters and a tactical or two to be moved over.  It only dawned on me later you might be renegging because you thought I wanted to scramble them for your Battleship, so I mentioned that I promise not to scramble them.  Of course, you could have used that against me by sending only minimal equipment to SZ 112 and the rest for W. Germany, but instead, you decided to be a real jerk about it and DUG YOUR HEELS IN. (Might want to look in a mirror before accusing someone else.)

Fine, you have your policy.  Even though the change has had NO EFFECT on any of your moves, you want it to stand.  I have my policies too, and I’ll be glad to hit you with them when you cause an infraction. (Not that you posted your policy, so why should I post mine?)

Bad dice re-dos are only with one specific opponent and only because we’ve been playing for quite a while and both realize it is a friendly game and we want to have fun.  Getting 33 out of 38 hits with attacking infantry is really no fun for anyone, so we have a mulligan policy.  I’ve never asked you for a die reroll, despite you stating that I want it…

I think you are very dishonest.  The Russian move had no bearing on W. Germany.  How could it?  There is literally NOTHING I can see that would need to be changed on the German front.  What I think you WANT to change is to move all your infantry to Amur since I didn’t attack it heavily.  That’s what I really think you want, but you don’t want to admit that.  England has not gone, America, Australia nor China have gone…and only England could possibly have been effected by what happens in W. Germany.

Fine, you want it to stand, it stands.  I will consider your inflexibility to be an admittance that you cannot possibly win the game if you don’t have this attack.  It must be why you are fighting so hard.  I mean, generally, I allow people to rectify mistakes (as long as it does not seriously hurt me, like making me continue an attack after they correct their units in the place being attacked, etc.)  I am usually very happy to allow people to place units up to a round after their turn ended, or correct their cash, or whatever.  I guess, in this game, we have to use Tournament Rules.  (ie I have to be an ass and call you out on every possible infraction which is annoying and stupid.)

Will you post America already?  Or are you going to give up and say my original argument is right:  Against Germany, Italy and Japan, if Russia gets no help what-so-ever from the allied nations (England, America, Australia) it will die.  You know, the only reason we’re actually playing this game?

[Jennifer]

Correct, what is done is done.  I’ll be watching for mistakes, and I’m sure others will be glad to point them out to me as well.  There’ve already been more than a few PMs saying you’re just being a jerk because you know you will lose if you dont make this attack.

Go with America, or are you giving up?

[Gargantua]

It’ll be another 3 hours before I can post.

renegging

I can’t possibly be renegging, if I haven’t made a committment or a promise?

What I think you WANT to change is to move all your infantry to Amur since I didn’t attack it heavily.

For the record, I don’t want anything but to continue, I’m not advocating moving ANY of my pieces AFTER my moves, I’m happy with them just as they are, because I moved them accordingly.

If you really want to know the problem, I’ll tell you EXACTLY what my problem is.  With your aircraft moved, I’d have been tempted to attack your fleet of aircraft in Holland. with at minimum 2 infantry, 2 bombards, maybe planes.  And building a Russian Navy (because it would survive) (I made a promise to Larry to try a strategy we discussed in a game). I am aware you would consider this suicide, irrelevant, I’d look at the numbers first.

However, you put ALL of your planes in HOLLAND, which removed the possibility of attacking said territory with any reasonable hope of victory, thus, no Russian navy, or Bomber (which was option 3)

My airforce also did NOT fly towards Japan because if you are going to keep all your planes, I’m going to need them closer to home, vs reducing hopefully, the German Airforce by a few planes, with the British troops.

thus the game becomes 2 totally different games, based on the premise of the changes you want to make, that’s why it’s unjust - because dice have been rolled, purchases made.

Make a new G1 if you don’t like it, it’s the only way we’re going to ungrudgingly see past this on an even keel.

And I don’t care what IL thinks…  DM would give this scenario a just judgement - and probably tell us to start a new game.

Per my comments above, America etc will be posted tonight.