Does an A+3 Sealion = Axis victory?

[Omega1759]

Guys, what would you do against this? Zone 111 is spared, but with naval build to push it out. If UK goes stupid, I think I can sealion.

Build Aircraft Carrier + 1 sub + 1 destroyer in zone 112

Take 112 (1 cruiser, 1 sub and 1 battleship + 1 tactical W. Germany)
Take 106 with 2 subs (117 / 118)
Take 110 (against BB and Cruiser + 3 scramble) with 2 subs (103/ 108) +  1 bomber 2 tactical (W. Germany) + 2 fighters (1 from Holland, 1 from Norway: none of these to south Italy)
Take France Turn 1 (4 infantry, 4 mec, 3 artillery, 4 tanks, 1 tactical from Poland, 1 fighter from Slovakia)
Take Normandy Turn 1 (Destroy fighter to help Italian Fleet) - 1 Infantry, 1 tank and 1 fighter, Attack with 3 infantry, 1 tank, 1 tactical from Germany, 2 fighters ( 2 from W Germany)
Take Bulgaria with 1 infrantry from Romania / Finland with 1 infrantry from Norway
Take Yugoslavia (3 tanks, 6 infantry with 3 from great southern germany, 1 from romania, 2 from slovakia, 2 artillery from great southern Germany)

Move 2  fighters to Southern Italy (from Western Germany, attacked Normandy)
Land tactical from Poland in W. Germany
Land Figher from Norway on Carrier
Land Figher from Holland on Carrier
Land fighter from Slovakia in Holland
Land 1 Tactical from W. Germany to W. Germany
Land 2 Tacticals from W. Germany to Holland
Land 1 tactical from Germany in Holland
Move 3 AA Guns to Holland

In Holland: 3 AA guns, 3 tac, 1 fighter
In West Germany: 2 tactical, 1 strategic bomber
On 112: 1 damaged battleship, 1 cruiser, 2 subs, 1 destroyer, 1 carrier, 2 fighters
In South Italy: 2 fighters

25 / 36 chance to not lose a plane in  France
Should not lose planes anywhere else unless UK scrambles

[Omega1759]

@jim010:

Don’t forget the AA is also taken as a soak.  That drops teh odds another ~5-7%

I think I accounted for that.

I accounted for the AA + 2 tanks as 3 infantry instead (3 losses, 6 defense for each combo) and checked the AA box on. I think this is pretty close no?

[jim010]

Sorry guys, I still don’t see where all the planes are coming from to hit all these zones.

[Omega1759]

Another flaw with Jen’s strategy: the Italian fleet will get cluberred without any air cover.

[jim010]

@Omega1759:

Another flaw with Jen’s strategy: the Italian fleet will get cluberred without any air cover.

In this one instance, it is ok if you want Sealion.  Hitting the Italians means 3 planes and 1 loaded TT are not getting to London, and London should fall.

[Young Grasshopper]

I’ve changed the title of this thread, because the true and proper definition of “possible” was confusing. I’m sorry for causing such an up roar, and I hope the new title is clearer.

[Omega1759]

@jim010:

@Omega1759:

Another flaw with Jen’s strategy: the Italian fleet will get cluberred without any air cover.

In this one instance, it is ok if you want Sealion.  Hitting the Italians means 3 planes and 1 loaded TT are not getting to London, and London should fall.

I don’t think they need to be worried at all about Sealion. Jennifer has more than a 35% chance of not getting the French IPC and she might even lose 1 or 2 planes doing it (the 65% of the time she gets it)

Not sure where she takes her land units to invade London if most ground forces are wiped out in France and Western France. This just does not make sense to me.

Being Russia and watching the transport purchases and all the losses on the Ground, I would lick my lips and mass up in Eastern Poland!

[jim010]

I think I got the fhts figured out now.  Still, odds are dropping on Paris.

[jim010]

Omega, if you post a map, I could look at it easier.

First thing I would look at, is if I could move the fleet to sz109 and build a navy around it.  Otherwise, I would still bring all planes home, but maybe not the sz98 TT.

Not sure where she takes her land units to invade London if most ground forces are wiped out in France and Western France. This just does not make sense to me.

She may be down a couple tanks, but will still be able to load up using eth Scandanavian units, units from Ger, Pol, and Sgr and remaing tanks.  Being down the tanks, though, will affect your attack a bit on London.

[Omega1759]

@jim010:

Omega, if you post a map, I could look at it easier.

First thing I would look at, is if I could move the fleet to sz109 and build a navy around it.  Otherwise, I would still bring all planes home, but maybe not the sz98 TT.

Not sure where she takes her land units to invade London if most ground forces are wiped out in France and Western France. This just does not make sense to me.

She may be down a couple tanks, but will still be able to load up using eth Scandanavian units, units from Ger, Pol, and Sgr and remaing tanks.  Being down the tanks, though, will affect your attack a bit on London.

Hmm, I don’t think reinforcing 109 works because I can hit 109 with just about everything (pretty much all the planes, and all the subs left except what’s in 106).

If you get fleet out of the med, this assumes that you will defend Gibraltar at the end of UK 1? What will there be defending Gibraltar?

[jim010]

Post a map for me.

[Omega1759]

@Young:

I’ve changed the title of this thread, because the true and proper definition of “possible” was confusing. I’m sorry for causing such an up roar, and I hope the new title is clearer.

My take on the topic is that a sealion against a determined / sound defense will lead to a quick defeat of Germany.

If the sealion is opportunistic, however, it might lead to a victory.

[Omega1759]

@jim010:

Post a map for me.

I would like to, but I don’t use the software this board is using for the game (that would be a bad idea)… I assume you have an electronic copy of the map (there is a high res map in the post it topics of this board)

[jim010]

OK, then how about this?

sz111 to sz104
1 DD

sz111 to sz109
1 BB

sz109 to sz92
1 DD, 1 TT

sz91 to sz92
1 CA

sz98 to sz92
1 CA, 1 CV, 1 tac, 1 TT (load from Alx 1 tank, form Mal 1 inf to Gib)

sz98 to sz94
1 DD

Scotland to Gib
1 fht

Mal to Gib
1 fht

I’ll not bother with everything else, unless it impacts the defense of London.

[Guest]

I did this using ABattleMap as a visual so I recommend doing that.

All right, UK 1 (assuming the German moves outlined above)

DD (109) to 106
Cru(91), Ftr (Malta) to 96
DD, Cru, CV, Tac (All 98), Ftr (London), Ftr (gib) to 98

Flipped a coin and Italy did not scramble

Italy’s dd misses in 96.
Italy gets one hit in 97. UK takes Cru to guard against possible sub BS.
DD beats sub in 106.

NC move.

Tac from 97 to malta.
Ftr from 96 to morocco
Trn from 109 to 106
Tank from Alexandria and inf
Trn from 98 to 92 with inf from Egypt and inf from malta, drop in morocco
DD 71 to 83
Stack Egypt move South Africa up.
Inf from W ind to E Persia

Place 8 inf 1 art, collect 33.

I1
Italy buys 1 DD

Moves into Kenya
Attacks s France loses 1 inf.

Attacks SZ 97 with 2 ftr, bmb, sub, dd, cru
Against 2 ftr carrier DD

Italy does 3 hits, UK takes 1 on carrier, 2 ftr (if ftrs saved Italy just retreats and ftrs die)
UK does 2 hits Italy takes dd, sub.
Italy does 2 hits,
UK does 1, Italy takes ftr.
NC Move 2 inf to Albania on trn, tank from N Italy there too
Collect 16

France 1
Move DD, Cru to 92
Move inf to morocco

UK 2

Buy 7 inf 3 art
If Germany took Gibraltar, Trn in 92 can’t make it to London. Let’s say the krauts did.

UK lands 1 tank  1 inf from Canada
Moves ftr from Morocco to UK
Moves tac from Gib to Morocco
Moves Trn with 2 inf from 92 to Egypt (since it can’t get to London)
Inf to C Persia from E persia

Collect 27

Germany’s Best G3 Sealion force is

16 inf
4 art
6 tanks
2 ftr (1 after aa hit)
3 tac
1 bmb
BB
Cru

Against
20 inf
4 aa
4 art
1 tank
3 ftr

Germany gets 1 bombard hit + 10 more

UK gets 11

5 inf
4 art
6 tanks
2 ftr (1 after aa hit)
3 tac
1 bmb
BB
Cru

Against
16 inf
4 art
1 tank
3 ftr

9 germ
9 uk

6 tanks
2 ftr (1 after aa hit)
3 tac
1 bmb
BB
Cru

Against
7 inf
4 art
1 tank
3 ftr

6 germ

6 UK

2 ftr (1 after aa hit)
3 tac
1 bmb
BB
Cru

Against
1 inf
4 art
1 tank
3 ftr

Conclusion: Planes retreat.

That’s if Germany actually does invade UK. They probably should just go scotland.

If I can delay sealion to G4 and totally neuter Italy at the same time, I think that’s worth UK falling G4. Assuming USA isn’t just buying combat ships for the pac Germany won’t hold UK for very long anyways, now that the cost of paying for 3 inf a turn there is more than the island is worth ( 8 )

[JimmyHat]

Here is my Alpha2 G1 opening for a G3 Sealion attempt.  If UK knows what they are doing they can squash it.  Going with a max trn build G2.

G1
Buy $30= 2 trn 1 cv

Combat
Paris-
3 inf 1 art 3 mech 1 tac from WGerm(lands in Wgerm or CV)
1 art 2 arm from Holland
2 arm from SGerm
1 tac Poland(lands in Wgerm)
(3 inf 2 art 3 mech 4 arm 2 tac vs 9@2 2@3 1@4)-lose mechs before arty

Normandy
4 inf 1 art 1 arm 1 ftr from Holland (ftr lands in SItaly)
1 mech from Wgerm
4 inf 1 art 1 mech 1 arm 1 ftr vs 2 inf 1 arm 1 ftr

Yugo
6inf 2 art Sgerm
2 inf
1 inf 1 arm Romania
9 inf 2 art 1 arm vs 5 inf, retreat to Romania if it gets rough

sz112
1 BB 1 CA from 113
1 sub from sz 124
1 ftr from Slovakia, lands in Wgerm
1 BB 1 CA 1 SUB 1 ftr vs 2 CA

sz 110
all remaining aircraft
3 ftr 3 tac 1 bmb vs 1 BB 1 CA and 3 possible scrambles

sz106
1 sub each from sz 118, 117

sz 91
1 sub each from sz 108/103

Noncom
1 arm poland-Wgerm
1 arm slovakia-wGerm
assorted inf and art to Wgerm-Germ(dependent on filling 2 trn loads of 13 trns.  remainder head to Slovakia)
leave 1 inf in Poland, and take Bulg/Fin with 1 inf each

Placement-all in sz112

collect 68, 70 with Yugo.  Its been a while since I had to think it through so there might be a mistake, please find it!:)  Again this is using Alpha2 and has Germany gung-ho for Sealion.  Thats why I do fewer attacks.  The all air attack on 110 is risky no doubt, but UK has to scramble for it to be so, and then a trade of those aircraft for those ships and 3 UK ftrs might be worth it.  Usually the UK player just sacrifices those 2 ships and hopes to get 2 hits.  (that much airpower clears those 2 ships)  I want to minimize losses to the units I’ll need in order to attack, that’s another reason for the reduced number of attacks.

Not sure how I will change it for Alpha 3…other than going G2 barbarossa.

[JimmyHat]

@Omega1759:

@jim010:

Post a map for me.

I would like to, but I don’t use the software this board is using for the game (that would be a bad idea)… I assume you have an electronic copy of the map (there is a high res map in the post it topics of this board)

I know, its too bad you have to download something in order to use the utility.  A web based program would have been the best.  Not that I think it has a virus, enough people have downloaded the file that I feel confident that is not the case…my computer on the other hand does have a virus!  I don’t want to download any new files for my computer that are not university related.

[JimmyHat]

The way she touted that America Pacific strategy, I’m starting to think Jenn usually plays Allies in her home games?  If so, I would use this opportunity to address everyone that they should try and vary their faction side from game to game.  I personally use chance to decide the power(s) I’ll be.  By playing only one side you fail to see the reverse side of the coin, your thinking becomes linear and it can affect your ability to see the viability of incoming attacks.(tactics and strategies you are not familiar with)

Any ideas Mantlefan as to how to adjust my G1 opening for Alpha3?  Perhaps sending more aircraft against Normandy and have those ground units hit Paris?  The problem with this is that I like to have additional heavy units on the coast after G1 to threaten a small landing G2.

[Daedelus]

@Stalingradski:

Omega - it’s nice to read a post that isn’t complaining, but thinking of the new possibilities!

We all have to reserve judgement, and think of the long-term effects of the new rules changes. And play, and learn, and then complain…  :)

Well said!

[Jennifer]

@mantlefan:

My other post got flagged as spam and deleted I guess because it was too long,

Anyways, the short of it is that with jen’s opening UK can neuter italy and still hold germany back to a g4, which germany will win handily, but Italy is set WAAAY back and Germany has a huge russia to face becuase more was needed for sealion.

Don’t Don’t Don’t……1,000,000x, don’t forget that the Ger NO for holding UK is gone. That’s huge in factoring the viability of the strat

I never claimed that holding Italy was an option or not an option.  I only claimed that Sea Lion was possible.

I realize there is no NO there any longer, I don’t care.  My stated objective is not to actually conduct Sea Lion, it is to prove it is possible to complete on G4.  I have done so.  As I said, I dont care if England has an Infantry and Artillery ready to take it back and I have no units between a Russian tank in E. Poland and Berlin, I only want to prove you can take London by Germany Round 4.  It is a very fanatical statement for a reason.  I want all blinders on and only to focus on one objective: London.  Nothing else matters.  I dont care if I lose the game.  Success is taking London.  Only London.  Have I said it enough?  Probably not: NO OTHER SITUATION ON THE BOARD MATTERS AS LONG AS LONDON FALLS 51% OF THE TIME OR BETTER, PREFERABLY 70% OR BETTER.