How is the balance with the new Alpha 2 changes? Please give your view.

[Jennifer]

I believe that EM (Emperor Mollari) showed me a much better solution for America.

1)  To upgrade a minor IC to a major IC it costs 20 IPC (I believe, correct me if I am wrong)
2)  American Industrial Complexes upgrade to Major complexes as soon as America is at war and do so at no charge

Thus, a cheaper solution is to put a Minor complex in Mexico.  It is close to the fleet off W. USA and Hawaii and only costs 12 IPC.  Sure, between the two you can only put out 6 units, but at 6 IPC for the cheapest one, that’s 36 IPC in units (probably more, you want more than just Submarines, right?)

[Cow]

you can attack the uk battleship without going to war with USA. In fact the draw backs to going to war with UK early on are very small. I believe instead of a 10 bonus you make a 5? but you get kwangtung +1 and bship sunk … yeah anyway.

if you want me to spank you all night long in a game, we can play one, loser has to drink a glass of water.

[Dark_Destroyer]

@Cow:

you can attack the uk battleship without going to war with USA.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh….  wut?  :?

[Cow]

japan just loses the +10 bonus for fighting UK / ANZAC, it doesn’t throw usa in war.

War on UK or ANZAC puts you at war with both.

Soviet union and USA are exclusive, you only go to war with that country when you declare war on them. you start at war with china.
~

oh yeah strat bombing with tactical bombers + bomber round 2 can get nuts. if uk doesn’t get a bomber kill 5d6+2 in bombs over uk.

I don’t particularly like doing that in dice games, because the amount of rolls involved, but germany should have more than enough air with his starting fighters/tactical bombers/bomber (11 I believe) vs your 4 should you intercept… he does have the numbers to eat your lunch box.  if you get two aa gun hits germany has 9 1s vs your 4 2s (his fighter 1s wipe you immediately so the odds don’t favor you). If you do intercept and luck out and get 1-2 bomber kill. germany still does 2-3d6+2.

What likely is to happen is germany loses 2-3 air units while uk loses 1-2 and takes  around 10 industrial damage.

So in other words… if uk scrambles fighters round 1 and loses them… uk gets bombed hard and sea lion is easy as hell.
~
That’s another reason to do sea lion. in dice games as germany he’s going to scrable to try to protect something he thinks he can defend… in which case you retreat after the first round of combat usually, but if you get lucky and somehow kill uk’s fighters… dawg that’s GG. you bomb for 5d6+2 if he can’t intercept… if he buys a fighter to defend that’s no where near as good as 3 infantry on defense so your sea lion is easy.

That’s the thing I been saying… you can’t scramble to protect your naval as uk unless you know you have overwhelming odds to defend what you scramble against.

[Dark_Destroyer]

@Cow:

japan just loses the +10 bonus for fighting UK / ANZAC, it doesn’t throw usa in war.

War on UK or ANZAC puts you at war with both.

Soviet union and USA are exclusive, you only go to war with that country when you declare war on them. you start at war with china.

Page 35 of Europe 1940 Rulebook:
…or Japan makes an unprovoked declaration of war on the UK or ANZAC, the United States may declare war on any or all Axis powers.

[Cow]

hmm I had to think about this a bit. Alpha +1 and Alpha +2 rules are different, also the book isn’t very clear in the japan political situation.
~
I noticed when reading pg 34 that they hint towards war with the usa as well if you declare an unprovoked war on UK/ANZAC.

“A declaration of war by Japan against either the UK or ANZAC will immediately result in a state of war between japan and both of those powers. A state of war between Japan and France or between Japan and the soviet union will not affect relations between Japan and United States, and vice versa.”

I notice that in Japan’s political situation they make no mention of war with UK/ANZAC going to war with USA, but they do hint it at by not including UK/ANZAC in the france/soviet union section.

It’s kind of strange that japan’s political situation makes no mention of USA entering the war if UK/ANZAC is attacked, but certainly doesn’t leave out that possibility.

[Axisplaya]

@Cow:

However we use ALPHA +2 rules. which override that.

Err….where did you read that ?

[Cow]

hmmm this is weird. http://www.axisandallies.org/node/439 . In the japan section it says war is mutually exclusive. Then in the USA section it says war.

the link above is rules preview before game was released. The rulebook is different and supercedes. Now Japan rules don’t even mention it.

It is under USA in PG35 like above user said. Also looked at alpha+1 and +2 and it doesn’t mention any political changes.

I guess USA does enter war if Japan kicks off too soon.  HMMMMMMMM I was mistaken my bad. I was allies my first couple games too and japan went nuts on uk round 1. I remember in pacific 1940 usa went to war when japan attacked something other than china.

It should still say a provoked war on UK/ANZAC can cause USA to enter the war in Japan’s political situation. The other political situations were redundant, i am surprised it was not consistently redundant. Otherwise you would print a list of scenarios which cause war.
~

hoho well that changes many things.

If I put usa at war R1 it would be so I can take india round 3-4… but I wouldn’t expect germany on the europe half to be able to take UK over. Just have to wait patiently and hammer away at china/russia, which is what I did the other day. I took kwangtung though without USA going to war, but that is a minor issue.
~
but still you can’t sink USA R1 and expect Sea lion on the Europe half to go well. I imagine you would take philippines over with some guys so that’s 1 transport out of range. how many transports will you have in range of West USA? Maybe 4 land units to try and hold wets usa? stick 2 inf 2 artillery and a tank in central usa with some air on East USA and we’re good to go. save UK right away and fight back against japan later. Simple enough.

~

yeah I guess this game is pretty balanced.  assuming italy gets blown out the water by UK ships and UK gets taken over. USA > italy . Germany > Russia. Russia just has to his best till USA shows up for the two front war.  If usa spends what he would in a Pacific only map… he should do OKAY. Considering pacific 1940 alone was pretty balanced.

[Axisplaya]

@Cow:

hoho well that changes many things.

Indeed…
The game is fun for the Japanese in the pacific, but is not that easy…Often, you will find that with proper allied play, it is difficult for japan to buy enough ships AND men to win the game.

[Cow]

in pacific 1940 alone. I usually machine gun my way to india let usa do anything except take japan (and hope he gives me kamikaze by taking some of the isles). Take india, wrap up china. then there are just 2 players.  Then Either I lost too much stuff in the process or I didn’t. Either way USA has to take the initiative by taking cash islands down south or something.

it sucks when you lose more than what you expect along the way and get set back a round or two from finishing off china / taking india.
~
but historically why would japan fighting brits cause usa to enter the war?

[Axisplaya]

@Cow:

in pacific 1940 alone. I usually machine gun my way to india let usa do anything except take japan (and hope he gives me kamikaze by taking some of the isles).

Man, you should take some time to read the Alpha +2 rules carefully.

You can find them here :
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=21859.0
or here :
http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4167

Here is Alpha +2 rule 13:

13. Kamikaze Strike: The capture of certain islands (Iwo Jima, etc.) is no longer required to activate kamikaze - they can be used at any time. If an Allied power attacks Japanese units in or conducts an amphibious assault from a sea zone containing the Kamikaze symbol, the Japanese player can announce at the beginning of the Conduct Combat phase, of that round, that he or she intends to launch a kamikaze strike. (Note: Kamikaze strikes are now triggered by combat, not combat movement.) See page 14 (Pacific 1940) for specific details as to how Kamikaze strikes are conducted.

So you don’t have to hope “US gives you Kamikaze by taking some of the isles”.

As for your strategy of letting USA doing anything except taking japan, well, i don’t think it is optimal  in G40, and it is clearly bad in P40 .
When you come to think of it, Japan starts with an amazing 21 planes airfleet, when USA has only 4(In Pacific 1940 alone). How well you are going to play with your planes will have a huge impact on your game.

[Jennifer]

Yes, hitting the British Battleship in SZ 37 will bring America into the war.  Granted, America may not declare war against Japan and/or the European powers, but why would they not?  It is in their best interest to enter the battle as soon as possible.

It was with this consideration I decided to attack Philippines, Philippines SZ and Hawaii SZ, as America will be in the war anyway (if I hit the British BB in SZ 37, and it so far seems the only viable option is to hit that thing early and neuter the British navy in the Indian Ocean).  Since hitting these areas will remove an American NO (Philippines-center of power) as well as destroy their navy in the Pacific, it seemed the best route.  Otherwise, they go to war and have their whole fleet.

Dunno.  Granted, there can be an arguement for hitting Russia and China and ignoring England, ANZAC and America early.

[Cow]

USA at war R2 is fairly typical in pacific 1940 games.  Sometimes R3. Have yet to see R1 work out in pacific 1940.

That’s why I say putting USA at war r1 is bad idea… even if you’re killing more shit than you’re losing, it’s a huge opportunity cost when you compare what you’re doing there to what you could do in Asia.

there is always an opportunity cost.

[Cow]

Axisplaya

I know about the Alpha +2 kamikaze rules. They do not apply to pacific 1940, it applies to global.

i think pacific 1940 was balanced, but the europe half sucks balls.
~
I am surprised allies are getting hit with nerfs in the pacific half of the map. Make UK so it can hold instead of sinking italy. That way italy can play and UK can play. I don’t see how hard that is.

[Jennifer]

If you don’t hit them on Round 1, there’s really no reward for doing so on Rounds 2 or 3.  IMHO, it’s Round 1 and get some really nice kills (and kick the Americans out of the Pacific) or Round 4 before America attacks you.

[Jennifer]

Well, despite your trollish behavior, Cow, I will answer you in a more hospitable manner.

Players should always worry about the naval supremecy of their opponents when playing an isolated nation such as England (Atlantic), America, ANZAC and Japan.  If one allows the Americans to consolidate their forces, they will be too powerful for you to stop.  If one attacks them from the outset you severely weaken the British navy in the Indian Ocean (they can hardly afford to replace a Battleship) and you virtually annhillate the American fleet. (What they can build and move to counter you is of no signficance, you can easy swat their new navy aside much like I just swatted your inhospitable, uncouth and vulger assault aside.)

America, with 50+ IPC a round at peace has 200 IPC to spend before entering the war licitely.

Add to that, 2 Submarines, 2 Destroyers, a Cruiser and 1 to 3 fighters that Japan will kill in round 1 and you see a serious dent being formed. (For the price of maybe 1 aircraft, I have now destroyed 57 IPC worth of naval and air forces.  Yes, I got a fighter too, the one in the Philippines dies to the naval assault or the ground assault - either way, it dies.)

Now, America has 1 Carrier, 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer and 1 Transport in the water as well as 5 Fighters, 1 Tactical Bomber and 1 Strategic Bomber.  Hardly enough to sink 3 Carriers, 4 Fighters, 2 Tactical Bombers, 1 Cruiser, 3 Destroyers and a Submarine.

In two turns, they can add 1 more cruiser to their pile, but that is the summation of their starting fleet and it is only 1% odds that America will win such an engagement when attacking, whilst Japan has 100% odds of winning a like engagement.  And that is with no investment from Japan or America.

Now, it is obvious to anyone who has ever played this game that America will invest in the Pacific.  However, I plan on J2 to take Hawaii and I do not believe there is a build in the world that America can do with 52 IPC to alleviate their odds. (add 2 more Japanese submarines and run the calculator yourself.  Maybe I missed something?)

On J3, I have J2’s builds + 3 cover air patrol fighters to scramble as well as any other aircraft I put there to firmly establish that America is not in the war in the Pacific.

Essentially, on a round 1 strike, Japan has removed America from the game.  It only remains to gobble up the rest of the Victory Cities needed to win by fiat.  Honolulu, Sydney, Hong Kong, Manilla, Tokyo and the one in Kiangsu.

The real question is, why would anyone NOT attack America, England, France and China on round 1?

[Jennifer]

Now, it stands to reason that attacking Russia is an excercise in futility in most, if not all, cases.  Why give them four free infantry (the IPC equivalent at least) and make it harder for Germany?  They are ineffectual against Japan and if they do attack you, in their tactical ignorance, you can crush their forces and have the free IPC to augment your own forces.

England is another matter, why bother until you have firmly established control and exploitation of the seas?  Taking out America’s ability to distract you in the Pacific allows you to leisurely take out ANZAC and then England.  You don’t even NEED China!  You start controlling their only VC and you only have to hold it!  China cannot leave to help England, and once England is gone, do you really thing a country that can only produce infantry and artillery is going to stop Japan which is probably collecting around 100 IPC a round?

[Cow]

the red road is the burma road. it is red on the map, do you own the board game?

you seem really lost jen. good night.

you’re bad and i am not reading your big wall of text. you have been inconsistent throughout this thread. you say axis is favored, but then go on to say USA makes too much money and america is so great this and that. when america is a boring ass country to play.

play a game or shut up.

[Jennifer]

Don’t need the Burma road either.

See above.

Honestly, why do you bother debating anymore Cow?  We’re getting pretty convinced of your lack of tactical prowess as it is.  Ignore America! Lol.  Funny.  You cannot win with Japan if you attack China.  There is no attack, no not one, that Japan can make upon China that will result in the game win.  China has literally nothing you need and is well able to be relegated to last place.

[Cow]

If you need a good odds calculator do what I do and open up TripleA. it can simulate 5000 battles by default and give you a % of how many were won or lost.

It’s also a good program to play AA50, classic, big world, revised, or whatever the hell you feel like playing. Pacific 1940 is being developed, because there isn’t likely to be any major changes and if there is we can just save an edit to load.

When tripleA gets global 1940 this forum will be pointless to me. I am just surprised as hell larry harris makes adjustments based off forum feedback.

I just know I go to sleep happy I didn’t buy V4 and a little depressed about global. sht my group played global with classic rules, that sht was crazy as f**k. good times good times. no naval bases, no air bases, no artillery or mech, no national objectives, and we made italy part of germany, no victory cities just play till the other side gives up, ICs make any # of guys on them. that game was just slugs and tanks. it was a grind. it was actually more fun than the last few global games. We kept tactical bombers and destroyers/cruisers around, because we had no idea what to make them. but turning mechs to tanks is not a big deal if tanks are 5 (it balances out IPC wise on your starting units).

taking over uk is hard when you can load either 2 inf or 1 tank.

If I am going to be a guinea pig for this game, I am going to be grouchy as hell on the game’s forum.

I am sure a year from now the game will be done and well we have to do is hand over a country to the lowest bidder for serious games.