How is the balance with the new Alpha 2 changes? Please give your view.

[kilroynothere]

Sid, It’s quite possible the allies were not doing their job as I was playing them!   :-o I definitely was too timid with UK Pacific and Anzac, not declaring war until attacked by Japan, and with UK Europe, brought the med fleet back out into the Atlantic to protect London… did not help.

With London falling (zero income for UKE) and with Japan taking out Hong Kong, Singapore, all of DEI, Philippines & Guam with the NOs as they are structured, the Axis was doing better economically. Admittedly, Russia (and China for that matter as Japan went all tt to get the islands) still had much to say, but UKP, was not earning enough and had no navy, and the US really was stretched at that point, and Italy was way too strong that the Middle East would fall within 2 rounds.

Was typing this as Jennifer posted… her tally is even more aggressive than what was accomplished, but not terribly far off

Do most Allied players have UKP or ANZAC declare war on turn 2?  Have UK take out the Italian fleet although that gives an almost guarantee to Sealion working (if the German fleet attacks went well)?

Just curious to improve my Allied play. Thanks

[Fishmoto37]

@Cmdr:

By round 3 I have:

Germany:

• Sweeden NO +5
• Russia NO +5
• London NO +5
• Egypt NO +5
• London NO +5
• TT = 40-45 IPC, say 40
  Total: 65 IPC

Japan:

• Dutch East Indies NO +5
• 7 Pacific Islands NO +5
• Either Hawaii or NSW NO +5
• TT = 50 to 55 PC, say 50 IPC
  Total: 65 IPC

Italy:

• Med NO +5
• N. Africa NO +5
• Iraq +2
• NW Persia +2
• C. Persia +2
• 3 of 4 NO +5
• TT = 24 IPC
  Total: 45 IPC

Total Axis income by Round 3/4 = 65 + 65 + 45 = 175 IPC

Allies, on the other hand, have about 37 IPC for Russian TT, no NOs.
0 IPC for England Europe
4 IPC for England Pacific TT, no NOs. (- convoy raids)
20 IPC for ANZAC (assumes Japan went Hawaii instead of NSW)
70 IPC for America including NOs
4 IPC for China
0 IPC for France

Total: 98 IPC less any convoy raids.

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175 IPC for the Axis less 98 IPC for the Allies = 77 IPC advantage for the Axis.

Assumes Sea Lion success and non-crazy dice.

CJ, you forgot to add the Russians.

[Sid Vicious]

Germany:Sweeden, London, French TT’s

Japan:Dutch East Indies, 7 Pacific Islands, Either Hawaii or NSW

Italy:Med Cleared, N. Africa cleared, Iraq, NW Persia, C. Persia, and I assume Egypt (since Germany gets the Egypt NO)

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Germany seems fine.  They can take Sweden, France and Sealion on turn 3 (if they do nothing else including sending planes to help save the Italian navy).

Japan takes DEI, and Hawaii I’ll assume on turn 3 so as not to put USA on wartime econ.  Although I’ve never done this, it is intriguing.  I may be wasting my time chasing India.  Ignore Calcutta and dominate the Pacific by owning Hawaii, Phillipines, DEI and slowly send units back to take NSW and contain Calcutta……Hhhmmmm.  One IC on the Asian mainland can handle China and probably Calcutta…Hhhhmmmmmm.  This does seem to be allowing Calcutta to mass some fighting capacity.

Italy is where I am incredulous.  How does Italy Advance that far in the Middle East while clearing the med, North Africa and taking Egypt?  All by 3rd turn?

Once Germany has London, what do they do with it?  Produce three units as USA advances?  If they are relaying units from the europe, thay are not sending them East.  The Russian Bear should have a stack of 20 (?) infantry in Eastern Poland.  He starts the game with 3 fighters if he buys one more he can surely use the his Inf as shock troops (losses) as he advance the 2 TT’s needed to seize Berlin.

In my opinion, sacking London makes a big splash but England can and must make it hard enough to take that Germany is starved for troops after the conquest.

This game is much improved but IMO it is still a race to see if Russia can absorb enough German punishment for USA and allies to come to the rescue.  Of course I detest victory conditions, we usually go to total victory or quit when it becomes apparent.

This is my 2nd post on this forum, I could be just full of sh*t…LOL

I have been playing A&A since the late 1980’s though.

[Jennifer]

Yea, sorry.  Add 37 IPC for Russia, or if you want, toss in Finland as well to Russia’s tally.  So 40 IPC advantage for the Axis.  It’s still 5 destroyers or 9 infantry, artillery, 2 armor advantage for the Axis.  That’s a lot!

[Cow]

if you want to balance this money wise… allies as a whole should make more than axis no matter what the hell happens when usa enters the war. USA is too far away to help out anytime soon so there is a two round delay with usa before you see anything he spent.

So allies should make about 80 more. Seems fair. Axis have strategic positions and can make early gains that are hard to deal with quickly.

[Kobu]

@Cmdr:

By round 3 I have:

snip

This is with taking off all the Allied pieces or what? That’s not even remotely possible by turn 3.

[kilroynothere]

I also agree that Jenn’s assumptions are pretty darn impossible to attain without the Allies simply not showing up at all.  In my above scenario, I played the allies a bit timidly and would love to know how to stop the Axis steam roller from happening by turn 3.  The IPCs looked something like this:

Germany:  46 +15NO =61 (+30 captured IPCs from UKE)  (will lose +5NO when at war with Russia next turn)
USSR:  37
Japan:  56 + 10NO = 66
US:  now at war = 50 +20NO = 70
UKE:  0
UKP:  7
ANZAC:  10 +5NO = 15
Italy:  20 +10NO = 30
China: 7 + 6NO (Burma Road open and held for the most part) = 13
France: 0

Axis Total:  157
Allies Total:  142

I do believe that Japan could have been blocked or attacked earlier to potentially prevent some of the DEI and UK grabs, but I just did not figure that one out well. Even without Japan doing quite so well, it seems that it the Allies are in deep trouble at the end of Round 3 because the UKE is gone (and will not be back for some time), UKP is negligible, ANZAC is marginal, and the US is struggling to get up to speed and get units in place. Russia on the other hand is in a pretty good position to start making some strides against Germany.

Maybe just need to play on past round 3 to determine the true outcome, but by simply counting units, IPCs, and positioning, it seemed inevitable.  Would really like to know how the allies prevent this from happening. It just seems I am missing something here….

And Gargantua, on the Germany merge with Italy, fascinating question, and to me if the NOs stay the same, probably an advantage. Only downside to the Axis are no can opener moves.

[Kobu]

kilroynothere,

From what you wrote, and from seeing Japan at +10 NO, it seems you didn’t position that well prior to Japan expanding every which way. It takes some practice coordinating your powers in the Pacific. You should be causing trouble every way that Japan doesn’t go, which I’m guessing is in China and threatening Korea/Manchuria with Russia. A full move into Manchuria with a Chinese build on top can be a nightmare for Japan. On top of that, you need to be prepared to toss away ships and landing parties to make Japan pay for everything they want to do. The DEI is very hard for Japan to hold, as are the border islands. Once they lose that income and realize they no longer have enough land units to take on China and India, it’s too late for them to do anything about it. The US should be moving through the Queensland express and/or the Carolines to threaten in all directions. With the Japanese navy presumably stuck down south, I’d also look at the good old Soviet/US pact in Korea and a nice stream of subs in later turns to strangle them. New and improved kamikazi attack conditions make this a tad bit harder to pull off, but you’ve got a lot of options. Just remember Japan cannot rule both the sea and the land at this stage and your combined forces can grind them down.

Italy’s income is…distressing. You fled the Med, I take it? Unfortunately, once you concede that, the US is going to have a lot harder time doing anything about it. Weigh your options on the Atlantic side well. Liberating London isn’t always the best choice, and you may be able to get Germany to pump in more funds preparing to defend it than they’ll get out of it. If you can bottle Italy and then knock out the Germany navy while stranding their troops in England, you could still have a good chance at winning.

[Cow]

actually r2 germany can load an inf on an italian transport and round 3 drop off.

[Pop]

Just a thought, in our games we allow all fighter’s in england to scramble not just 3. This allows the english to build fighters which means that sealion will be hard for germans unless they deploy alot of air power to defend the fleet. Also the brits can then redeploy the fighters to other areas when the germans go elsewhere.

[Jennifer]

Garg,

I counted London once, not twice.  There is England Atlantic and England Pacific.  Taking London does not stop Calcutta from earning an income.

Egypt NO round 3:

• Germany takes S. France R1
• Germany builds transport R2
• Germany NCMs armor to Egypt R3

With England toast, Egypt should be Italian by round 2.

China at 4 IPC assumes: China has Kansu, Sikang, Tsi, Szechwan.  Taking the rest is almost a given for Japan in every game I have witnessed or played in.

Most of those outcomes are derived from a Low Luck game and confirmed using battlecalculators. They assume virtually 100% efficiency with gear, however, and of course, I did give the caveat that outrageous dice would skew the results.  But with aggressive play, those outcomes are not only probable, but highly probable.  It would take near a miracle to make huge changes in those outcomes. (easy to swing it a few IPC one way or the other, I’m talking huge as in London surviving against 84% odds of losing it, America miraculously sinking the entire Japanese navy on Round 1, etc.)

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Kobu,

As I mentioned, that’s with a HIGHLY aggressive Axis.  If you play more conservative, then I suspect you would not see it.

However, it is becoming routine in my games to have no American ships in the Pacific by Round 3, London in German hands, Italy owning all of N. Africa by the start of Round 4.

If you look at the board, I am sure you can see how you can exploit the Axis powers in rounds 1 and 2 to virtually annihillate every allied surface ship.  After that, it’s only a matter of moving where you need to go.

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The idea with China is simple, you close that road and you stack everything you can on it.

To snip England’s testicles off, you prevent them from getting the Dutch East Indies by attacking them early.

To body blow America, you sink their fleet before they can build it up.

Japan has WAY more than enough firepower to crucify the Allies if they strike at the appropriate time and plan for follow up attacks appropriately.  The idea is to be thinking about where you will be on Round 3 on Japan 1, not where you will be after NCM of Round 1.  America does NOT have the firepower to do anything to Japan unless you allow them to build for 3 rounds without sinking any of their things early.

London is dumping everything into London, so Egypt should fall like France.  If it takes Italy more than three rounds to get Egypt, Italy is being played wrong, or England allowed Germany to take it unopposed.

Russia is an issue, but until Round 4, you can ignore them and they cannot earn more than 37 IPC a round.  Means, if you do not invest into an army, you should have about equal strength by the time they can attack it.

Just imho, I mean, I only destroy the Allies as a matter of course now.  Letting them declare war on you when they feel like it just isn’t my cup of tea.

[JamesAleman]

The way I typically secure the German Land unit in Egypt NO is by:
Turn 1 noncombat 1 infantry in N. Italy, or attack Yugoslavia round 1 with 6 infantry 2 artillery 3 armor and maybe a fighter.
Turn 2 noncombat 1 infantry from either N. Italy or Yugoslavia onto an Italian Transport.
……Italy moves transport to sz 98.
Turn 3 noncombat 1 infantry from Italian transport onto axis controlled Egypt.

Total German cost: $3 IPC value(starting piece so technically its free) for the infantry that is redeployed to Africa, which is still alive and 2 turns of staging…minimal opportunity cost especially if the unit helped take Yugoslavia. Expect to collect NO 2-3 turns before the U.S. takes Egypt.

Note: if you put 1 infantry and 1 armor, it is possible to move the armor into Irag on round 4 for the Alpha NO and 3 more land units…use a bomber and get all 3 Persia NO’s for Germany by turn 5-6.

If Egypt did not fall by turn 3, sometimes I offload on turn 4. Depends on game.

I may be wrong, but Germany is (probably) not able to collect maximum NO’s in alpha without the game ending by victory city conditions…London, Egypt, and 2/3 Russian cities = 8/11 cities and actually ends the game before you can take Moscow-I guess you could technically take Moscow the round after as the allies have 1 round to stop you. (Assumes you have Paris, Warsaw, Berlin, and Rome)

[nimitz1]

So what exactly are the German moves/builds(and where) for Germany to secure the UK on turn 3?  Im thinking AC + transports turn 1 in 112, then transports again in turn 2 in same sea zone? Yes?  Could an effective counter for UK be not to build at all on turn 1, save the ipcs and build 2 BB’s on turn 2 in sz80.  With the 3 scrambled fighters they might get lucky defending against the german fleet on 5 fours.

[Cow]

if japan sets up to sink me in hawaii… I pull back to west usa. that’s not hard to do.

[nimitz1]

@Cow:

if japan sets up to sink me in hawaii… I pull back to west usa. that’s not hard to do.

That wont help you if Japan decides to attack the US fleet before turn 4.  J1 everything to sz 6 Buy CV and destroyer. J2 Buy transports and another CV and move everything to Hawaii.  J3 Buy 2 bombers and some subs. J3 attack philipines (cv and transports purchased on J2), attack hawaii and/or attack the us fleet (if it was silly enough to stay on the west coast). J4 Move bombers and subs to hawaii (to smash any subsequent us navy builds on the west coast).  This should free up the jap fleet to wreak havoc at will in the pacific.

[Jennifer]

@Cow:

if japan sets up to sink me in hawaii… I pull back to west usa. that’s not hard to do.

I sink Pearl Harbor on Turn 1 or I go after Moscow.

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Germany takes France Round 1, Germany builds a fleet of Transports round 2, Germany takes London round 3.  There is absolutely nothing England can do to stop it.

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Moving a German unit to Egypt via an Italian tranny is great and all, but that’s 2 less units Italy can move herself.  I’d rather invest 16 IPC for a Tranny, Tank and Infantry (because that allows me to pop open a blocking unit with Italy and let the German tank blitz through.)

[Jennifer]

I’m not talking OOB, talking Alpha 2.

G1:

Normandy, Paris, S. France, SZ 111, SZ 106, SZ 91 taken/cleared

G2:

+10 Transports (9 in the north, 1 in the south)

G3:

London taken, egypt reinforced

I1:

British remnants and French fleet in the Med Sunk
Syria Taken (or Jordan depending on garrison.)

I2:

Egypt, Gibraltar Taken (assuming Gibraltar not taken I1)
Iraq activated

I3:

NW and C. Persia, NW Persia taken (depending on England garrison in C. Persia)

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J1:

Philippines, SZ 35, SZ 37, SZ 26, Yunnan, FIC, Sham State, various Chinese, Borneo, Hong Kong taken

J2:

Malaya, Celebes, Sumatra, Java, Hawaii taken

J3:

NSW and/or QUE taken
Most Australia taken by Dutch East Indies transports not killed by England

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Assuming you are playing Victory Cities, perhaps ANZAC layers ships to stop Japan from taking NSW/Queensland.  It stops the VC win, but still leaves Japan with about 65-70 IPC income with no American naval pressece. (British ships probably fled the area, considering all you have is a destroyer and a cruiser vs a vast air force.)

England is out of the game, period.  London is in the hands of Germany, Calcutta is cowering and turtling to stop Japan from taking them. (You’ll only be getting about 12ish IPC anyway.)  China is gone.  No Artillery, most starting forces gone.

I’d let Russia take Korea to advance further into China.  But lets face it, the days of Russia breaking the non-aggression pact are pretty much gone for good.  They need the 12 IPC to slow Germany until America can get into the war.

[Niels Juel]

@Cmdr:

I1:

British remnants and French fleet in the Med Sunk
Syria Taken (or Jordan depending on garrison.)

I dont know who you play against Jennifer, but if the UK player gather his fleet in z92 turn 1, there is no way you can take it out with the italians.
In fact its more the other way around then, if the italian player moves anywhere turn 1, you will have the option of crushing his fleet turn 2.

[Cow]

woah if japan hits hawaii turn 1… that puts usa in war… and that sets back japan’s offensive. and usa can land air in UK before germany can take uk down on R3 (plus 2 ground units with the starting transport off east usa).

USA collects bonuses can hit south america etc. How are allies losing if you throw usa in war so soon?
~

Only reason I been consistently winning is because my opponents keep trying new things, but I already know USA at war round 1 is not good. I don’t care what you sink and good you sink it. It’s not worth the 60 bucks you let america get combined with the opportunity cost for a swift asia.
~
R2 UK takedowns are really dicey for germany, that’s just luck. Starting to think usa should collect more money to balance out against luck or allies bid. and R3 is like wow… idk with usa in the mix i just don’t know

Is uk losing his 3 fighters trying to protect a set of ships in a desperate gambit? If that answer is yes, then you are doing it wrong. If you scramble with uk it must be in a battle you have probable odds of not losing a fighter.

[Sid Vicious]

Agreed.  Bringing USA into war on J1 coupled with a transport build on G1 should signal the intent of Sea Lion.  USA should sell out to get ships and aircraft in London to protect vs. Sea Lion.  Gibraltar is crucial to getting aircraft to London in 2 turns.