Let's Talk About Tech, Baby!

[robbie358]

OK, I love playing with tech, but not many other people do.  Why is that?  I don’t know, but it does sorta give you an easy way to balance out the OOB game.

So besides being able to buy dice to roll, I think that certain countries should start with certain techs.  We just need to find the correct balance of tech, that’s all.

I’m of the opinion that Germany should always start with super-subs.  If a player knows how to use it, it could be deadly.

Here’s what I’m thinking…

Germany- Super Subs, Improved Mech (maybe Adv Artillery, Rockets, Paratroopers, or Jets)
USSR- (maybe Increased Factory Production)
Japan- (maybe Improved Shipyards or Long Range Air)
UK- (maybe Radar)
ANZAC- (maybe Increased Factory Production)
Italy- (maybe Increased Factory Production)
USA- War Bonds (maybe Paratroopers, Increased Factory Production, Improved Shipyards, Radar, Long Range Air, or Heavy Bombers)

So that’s 2 big ones for Germany, and one small one for USA - to keep it historical and possibly balance it out.
Your thoughts?

[McLovin1985]

My friends and I never played techs because it would throw the balance of the game off too much. I like the idea and how in-depth they get, but has too much potential to screw the game up for everyone. Just my opinion, ours actually (other friends as well).

[Fishmoto37]

@McLovin1985:

My friends and I never played techs because it would throw the balance of the game off too much. I like the idea and how in-depth they get, but has too much potential to screw the game up for everyone. Just my opinion, ours actually (other friends as well).

Techs have the potential to ruin a game. We never use them either. In order to keep the game balanced, the techs like jets, heavy bombers, long range aircraft and super subs should have to be purchased after winning the tech. For instance jets are not an upgrade they are a brand new type of aircraft. It makes no sense that all your fighters suddenly become jets because you won a tech. After winning jets you should have to purchase them at their own purchase price and all your other planes remain regular fighters. Another reason we do not play this way is it would require new plastic sculpts. Like Me-262s (jets), P-51s (long range fighters), B-29s (heavy bombers). Maybe we will have these and others someday from FMG.

[FieldMarshalGames]

What if certain techs were awarded to certain Nations on a pre-set time table…

The trick is to make this balanced.

So a longer game would see all the techs in play, and everyone would know what is coming and when?

[Gargantua]

I agree with FMG’s response.  Scheduled tech would be coolest.

that or reasonably balanced National Advantages.

Random tech is the WORST at times,  last f2f game I played, I rolled 3 times, 1x die with japan, in a global game, and I got a tech every single time.

America spent triple the money, and couldn’t keep up.

And then there’s the techs you get too…. nothing like Radar for america, or super subs, when you need HB and LRA…

[chompers]

Last game I played the US grabbed improved shipyards turn 1.  Japan invested 35 IPC’s in tech over her first 3 turns and could only come away with radar.  Not fun.  Anyone else think radar should have some effect on naval combat?  Perhaps giving capital ships AA gun fire or something?  It was pretty important in the war at sea.

I like the scheduled tech idea as well, but it would be pretty difficult to balance effectively.

[brettstarr4]

I read in someone’s house rules, it may have been IL’s or may be posted on the house rules of this website. They were as follows:  You place each of the six tech rolls on a graph, three hits per tech are required to achieve the tech.  (if there are 12 techs, i guess you roll twice  and evens put you in the first column, odds in the second, or something to that effect).  Then each nation rolls a die at the beginning of its turn and for the tech hit, it progesses the research bar one block.  Then you can modify this by having some nations start with one block on certain techs, such as US starts with block one completed on heavy bombers or long range aircraft, england on radar, germany on super subs, rockets, etc.  I’ve never played this way but it sounds like a fun way to implement tech.

[Fishmoto37]

@FieldMarshalGames:

What if certain techs were awarded to certain Nations on a pre-set time table…

The trick is to make this balanced.

So a longer game would see all the techs in play, and everyone would know what is coming and when?

@Gargantua:

I agree with FMG’s response.  Scheduled tech would be coolest.

that or reasonably balanced National Advantages.

Random tech is the WORST at times,  last f2f game I played, I rolled 3 times, 1x die with japan, in a global game, and I got a tech every single time.

America spent triple the money, and couldn’t keep up.

And then there’s the techs you get too…. nothing like Radar for america, or super subs, when you need HB and LRA…

Yes, different techs for certain nations would be national advantages. But the techs that involve new types of units should have to be purchased at a new higher rate reflecting their superiority over other units. Existing units should remain the same. Otherwise one lucky die role could ruin a good close game.

[Gargantua]

It’s that, or you just add a Tech alotment, to keep tech equal.

IE,  The axis powers get to roll 3 tech dice a turn, and the allied powers get to roll 3 dice a turn.  They can either roll all 3 at once for one country, or they can roll 1 for each country or whatever.

The dice cost nothing.  You get them everyturn, and it’s up for you to decide which country gets to roll them.

[docfav7]

Scheduled Tech sounds interesting.

1 - G2 - Rockets
2 - UK2 - Radar
3 - USSR3 - Improved Factories
4 - Japan3 - Jet Fighters
5 - US5 - Long Range Aircraft

Just thoughts….

[Fishmoto37]

@docfav7:

Scheduled Tech sounds interesting.

1 - G2 - Rockets
2 - UK2 - Radar
3 - USSR3 - Improved Factories
4 - Japan3 - Jet Fighters
5 - US5 - Long Range Aircraft

Just thoughts….

You gave the U.S.S.R. the best one. Rockets are funky. You got the U.S. right. They had the only true long range aircraft in WWII. Japan with jets? They only tried to copy the Germans.

[docfav7]

Just thoughts.  Anybody have some better ideas?

[Fishmoto37]

@docfav7:

Just thoughts.  Anybody have some better ideas?

I have been leaning towards national advantages for each nation but I have enjoyed playing without techs so much that I just have not spent a lot of time trying ideas. If you have seen any of my other posts you will see that I do not believe in winning new types of units and suddenly all your existing fighters become jets or all your existing bombers become heavy or long range. If you win jet tech. then you should have to buy each each one at a higher price and all your old fighters remain prop driven. Sorry but the OOB techs just ruin the game for me. They need lots of reworking.

[crusaderiv]

Yes, different techs for certain nations would be national advantages. But the techs that involve new types of units should have to be purchased at a new higher rate reflecting their superiority over other units. Existing units should remain the same. Otherwise one lucky die role could ruin a good close game.

Fishmoto got it right….

USA- War Bonds (maybe Paratroopers, Increased Factory Production, Improved Shipyards, Radar, Long Range Air, or Heavy Bombers)
Partroopers is not a tech!!!

[Detuite]

Reading these forums it seems to me that most people dont like the randomness and the impossablity of achieving breakthroughs. Using this setup aloud every country the oppertunity of at least a few Lv1 techs and even some Lv2s. By using this tree smaller country’s most likely will never get Lv3’s. I’ll use Japan and America for my example of round 1

Japan turn 1 purchase phase- Tech’s advanced fighter, dive bombers, battle cruisers and advanced shipyard. They succeeded on all of thier level 1 techs and keeped 1 IPC’s for their next turn.
America turn 1 purchase phase- Tech’s Diplomacy, warbonds, advanced shipyards advanced battleships, battle cruisers, marines, recruit, artillery, cargo carriers and paratroopers. They succeeded on hitting only warbonds, advanced shipyards, paratroopers, diplomacy and marines.

At this rate the battle for the pacific is going to be epic.
And the tech race between germany and russia is equally exciting.

Technology Tree

Advanced Technique’s
  1) MARINES
Lv 1- Shock and Awe- 3 IPC’s -Marines can now retreat back to their respected landingcraft.
Lv 2- Marine Combat Training- 5 IPC’s -Marines leaving landingcraft during an amphibious assault now attack at a 2 without artillery, a 3 with artillery.
Lv 3- Advanced Combat Training- 8 IPC’s -Marines leaving landingcraft during an amphibious assault now attack at a 3, not stackable with the artillery bonus.
  2) Paratroopers
Lv 1- Surprise Assault- 3 IPC’s -Paratroopers attacking out of bombers now attack at a 2, not stackable with artillery bonus.
Lv 2- Supressive Fire- 4 IPC’s -While Paratroopers are active in a battle enemy artillery defend at a -1.
Lv 3- Sabotage- 8 IPC’s -While Paratroopers are active in a battle enemy tanks defend at a -1.
  3) Advanced Artillery Units
Lv 1- Salvo- 3 IPC’s -Artillery active in a battle now have the ability to assist 2 infantry at once.
Lv 2- Advanced Defencive positions- 6 IPC’s -Artillery active in a defencive battle now defend on a 3.
Lv 3- Advanced Artillery Training- 6 IPC’s -Artillery active in battle now have the ability to assist 3 infantry at once.
  4) Advanced Mechanized Units
Lv 1- All or Nothing- 4 IPC’s -Mechanized units attacking along with tanks can now carry along 1 infantry unit as well.
Lv 2- Improved Weapons- 4 IPC’s -Mechanized units attacking along with tanks now attack at a 2.
Lv 3- Improved Armor- 6 IPC’s -Mechanized units under attack now defend at a 3.
  5) Recruit
Lv 1- Local Recruitment- 3 IPC’s -Each turn place 1 infantry in your nations capitol.
Lv 2- Expanded Recruitment- 6 IPC’s -Each turn place 1 infantry in every original victory city you still own.
Lv 3- Auxillery Forces- 6 IPC’s -Each turn place 1 infantry in every captured victory city.
  6) Armor
Lv 1- All or Nothing- 5 IPC’s -Tanks can now carry 1 infantry with them on a blitz.
Lv 2- Long Range Cannon- 7 IPC’s -Tanks being attacked by land units now get a preemptive attack against them.( Only usable against land units )
Lv 3- Iron Wall- 10 IPC’s -All tanks being attacked now defend on a 4

Advanced Aircraft
  1) Cargo Craft
Lv 1- Pressure Stabilizer- 3 IPC’s -Bombers can carry 2 paratroopers to the front line. (Bombers can not attack.)
Lv 2- Oxygen Stabilizer- 5 IPC’s =Bombers can carry 3 paratroopers to the front line. (Bombers can not attack.)
Lv 3- Hull expansion- 8 IPC’s -Bombers can carry 4 paratroopers to or beyond the front line. (Bombers can not attack.)
  2) Advanced Fighters
Lv 1- Improved Motors- 5 IPC’s -Fighters add a +1 to movement.
Lv 2- Improved Weapons- 7 IPC’s -Fighters active as escorts or interceptors on bombing runs add a +1 to attack.
Lv 3- Improved Hull- 12 IPC’s -Fighters active in a battle now defend at a +1.
  3) Dive Bombers
Lv 1- Improved Motors- 5 IPC’s -Tactical bombers add a +1 to movement.
Lv 2- Armor Percing Round- 7 IPC’s -Preemptive Strike vs tanks when not accumpanied by AA guns.
Lv 3- Torpedos- 14 IPC’s -Preemptive strike vs all ships without AA capability. (Destroyers need be present for attacks on subs.)
  4) Advanced Bombers
Lv 1- Improved Motors- 5 IPC’s -Bombers and a +1 to movement.
Lv 2- Heavy Payload- 7 IPC’s -Bombers now roll 2D6 for accumulated damage to enemy structures.
Lv 3- Gunny Training- 8 IPC’s -Bombers get a +2 to attack when going against interceptors during bombing runs.

Advanced Naval Units
  1) Advanced Battleships
Lv1- Improved Turbines- 7 IPC’s -Add a +1 to movement.
Lv 2- Advanced AA Ordanence- 7 IPC’s -Preemptive Strike vs incoming aircraft at a 1 on a 1D6.
Lv 3- Broadside- 12 IPC’s -Battleships active in a sea battle or amphibious assault now get two shots at a 3 on a 1D6.
  2) Battle Cruisers
Lv 1- Improved Turbines- 7 IPC’s -Add a +1 to movement.
Lv 2- Advanced AA Ordanence- 7 IPC’s -Preemptive Strike vs incoming aircraft at a 1 on a 1D6.
Lv 3- Aircraft Catapult- 10 IPC’s -Cruisers can now carry 1 aircraft on their deck.
  3) Advanced Submarines
Lv 1- Improved Turbines- 5 IPC’s -Add a +1 to movement.
Lv 2- Long Range Torpedos- 7 IPC’s -Add a +1 to attacks.
Lv 3- Rubber Paint- 10 IPC’s -Disregard all destroyer benefits and surprise strike at a +1.
  4) Advanced Transports
Lv 1- Improved Turbines- 5 IPC’s -Add a +1 to movement.
Lv 2- Evade- 5 IPC’s -Transports can evade the enemy on a roll of 1 on a 1D6 and flee to friendly waters.
Lv 3- Advanced Hull Structure- 8 ICP’s -Transports can now carry up to 4 infantry.
  5) Advanced Destroyers
Lv 1- Improved Turbines- 5 ICP’s -Add a +1 to movement.
Lv 2- Hedgehog Morters- 8 ICP’s -When active in a battle add +3 if destroyer is targeting a submarine.
Lv 3- Loading Ramps- 8 ICP’s -Destroyers now act as transports able to carry troops the same as a basic transport.
  6) Advanced Carriers
Lv 1- Improved Turbines- 7 ICP’s -Add a +1 to movement.
Lv 2- Advanced AA Ordanence- 7 ICP’s -Preemptive Strike vs incoming aircraft at a 1 on a 1D6.
Lv 3- Reinforced Deck- 12 ICP’s -Carriers can now carry 3 fighter / tactical bombers.
  7) Advanced Shipyards
Lv 1- Extra Scrap- 8 ICP’s -Transports, submarines and destroyers cost 1 IPC less.
Lv 2- Metallergy- 10 ICP’s -Cruisers and carries cost 2 IPC’s less.
Lv 3- Advanced Metallergy- 12 ICP’s -Battleships cost 4 IPC’s less.

Political Upgrades
  1) False intelligence
Lv 1- False Defencive Report- 8 ICP’s -The defending army can choose 1 battle a turn to try and deliver false information to the attacking enemy before the combat round. The result of a roll of 1 on a 1D6 sends 25% (rounded down) of the attacking army fleeing back to a friendly territory.(attacker chooses which troops retreat)
Lv 2- False Attacking Report- 8 ICP’s -The attacking army can choose 1 battle a turn to try and deliver false information to the defending enemy before the combat round. The result of a roll of 1 on a 1D6 sends 25% (rounded down) of the defending army fleeing back to a friendly territory.(defender chooses which troops retreat, can not be used if defenders have nowhere to flee to.)
Lv 3- Upgraded Reports- 10 ICP’s -Falseifing reports now hit on a roll of 2 on a 1D6
  2) Increased Factory Production
Lv 1- Recruiter Training- 8 ICP’s -Minor industrial complexes can now produce 6 units.
Lv 2- Advanced Industry- 8 ICP’s -Artillery, tanks, mechanized infantry and AA guns cost 1 IPC less.
Lv 3- Advanced Aviation- 8 ICP’s -Fighters, tachticalbombers and bombers cost 2 IPC’s less.
  3) Radar
Lv 1- AA Team Training- 6 ICP’s -AA guns now defend at a +1.
Lv 2- Intercepter Training- 6 ICP’s -Intercepting fighter defend on a +1
Lv 3- Advanced AA Team and Intercepter Training- 10 ICP’s -AA teams and intercepters now defend at a +1.
  4) War Bonds
Lv 1- Donations- 5 ICP’s -Roll 1D6 and collect that income at the purchase phase of your turn.
Lv 2- Help The Cause- - 5 ICP’s -Roll 1D6 and collect that income at the purchase phase of your turn.
Lv 3- Dire Straits- - 5 ICP’s -Roll 1D6 and collect that income at the purchase phase of your turn.
  5) Diplomacy
Lv 1- Local Aid- 7 IPC’s -Gain a +1 on your diplomatic rolls.
Lv 2- Silver Tounge- 10 IPC’s -Gain a +1 on your diplomatic rolls.
Lv 3- Golden Tounge- 13 ICP’s -Gain a +1 on your diplomatic rolls.

Technology Breakthrough Rules

Step 1- On your purchase unit phase name which tech’s you want to research and pay the required amount of IPC’s. There are no limits to how many tech’s you can learn per turn but you have to learn them in order and only one Lv per turn. ie… turn 1 you can learn a Lv 1 tech if you are successeful, on turn 2 you can learn Lv 2 then Lv 3 on turn 3 if you succeeded with your Lv 2 upgrade.
Step 2- Roll 1 die per tech paid for and recieve Lv 1 tech’s on a roll of 4,5 or 6 on a 1D6, Lv 2 tech’s on a roll of 5 or 6 on a 1D6 and
Lv 3 tech’s on a roll of 6 on a 1D6.
Step 3- You Recieve your tech’s at the end of your turn to allow for rearmorment and training to take place, all tech’s learned on your turn will be in effect on your armies next turn defencive or offencive.

• All technologies are stackable unless mentioned above.
• Repeatable tech tokens are suggested.

[The Admirable Admiral]

Here’s what I’m thinking…

Germany- Super Subs, Improved Mech (maybe Adv Artillery, Rockets, Paratroopers, or Jets)
USSR- (maybe Increased Factory Production)
Japan- (maybe Improved Shipyards or Long Range Air)
UK- (maybe Radar)
ANZAC- (maybe Increased Factory Production)
Italy- (maybe Increased Factory Production)
USA- War Bonds (maybe Paratroopers, Increased Factory Production, Improved Shipyards, Radar, Long Range Air, or Heavy Bombers)

I’d probably give each country one tech that won’t unbalence the game maybe advanced artillery for USSR, Improved mech for germany and improved shipyards for Italy because they were working on modernizing their old battleships and on an aircraft carrier.

[axis_roll]

There’s plenty of tech ideas and modifications.

The goals of each set of tech rules can vary greatly.

My current FTF playgroup dislike the current AA50 tech rules for three main reasons (in order):
1).  Randomness of tech investment to target outcome
2).  Instantaneous usage of tech (surprise!  Got long range on 1 $5 tech dice on US1, your Japanese fleet is now sunk)
3).  Techs are not equal, some are more desirable than others and should equalized somehow

So I wandered onto an idea proposed by others (tech via a point system) and discussed in this thread:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=16240.0

Solutions to problems listed above:
1).  You can target a specific tech
2).  Due to the mechanics of how techs are achieved, other players are aware that game breaking techs are being developed by another nation, and can estimate how soon they might be achieved.
3).  By varying the points, better techs take longer to achieve, so that are an additional cost in time.  This also could enable some offsetting techs to be developed (more strategic)

Only through game play testing can an idea truly be measured as a good one or a bad one.  We have at least 15+ games with these tech rules.  Tweaking point levels and number of tech rolls along the way.

Feedback is appreciated

The attached Word document is much nicer format, but wanted to show the point values and rules without requiring people to d/l the document.

---

TECH via a POINT SYSTEM v2.2                             revised Dec 2010

Each tech has a point value.  Purchased researchers have the same cost, but are targeted for only one tech.  Roll as normal for research, but add up the total rolls and apply them toward the selected tech.  Once point value is reached, tech is gained (said researchers are lost/not needed).  Techs achieved on the first try come into play at the end of non-combat moves (yes, war bonds are ‘instant’).  This may result in achieving multiple tech per turn.  This is legal under these tech rules.

Example:
US wants heavy bombers eventually, they are worth 25 research, so on turn one I purchase one heavy bomber researcher.  I roll and get a 3.  Now I need 22 more research to get heavy bombers.  On turn two I decide I want super subs, and since that tech isn’t as powerful I only need 15 research to get them.  I purchase 2 researchers, both for the subs as I want to sink japan’s navy now.  I roll a 2 for my heavy bomber researcher, leaving 20 left, and then roll a 4 and a 5 for my subs, leaving 6 left and with any luck on turn 3 I’ll get my super subs.

Number of Researchers restriction:  Only 2 tech researchers are allowed per tech.  Both can be bought in one round. 
Tech points assignments:

Technology Val Technology description
Chart 1

1. Advanced
     Artillery 12 Each of your artillery units can now provide greater support. One artillery unit can support two infantry per attack. Two infantry when coupled with one artillery unit each have an attack value of 2.

2. Rockets 20 Your antiaircraft guns are now rocket launchers. In addition to its normal combat function, during the strategic bombing raid step of yourConduct Combat phase each turn, each of your antiaircraft guns can make a single rocket attack against an enemy industrial complex within 3 spaces of it.

3. Paratroopers  30 Each of your bombers can act as a transport for one infantry, but it must stop in the first hostile territory it enters, ending its combat movement. Both units must begin their movement in the same territory. The infantry is dropped after any antiaircraft fire is resolved, so if the bomber is hit, the infantry it carries is also destroyed.  The infantry unit may retreat normally to a friendly adjacent space during combat.

4. Increased       
     Factory
     Production 20 Each of your industrial complexes can now produce two additional units beyond its listed IPC value. For example, Germany with 10 IPCs can now produce 12 units. Also, when repairing a damaged industrial complex (removing damage markers), you can remove two damage markers at a time for the cost of 1 IPC (half price).

5. War bonds:        10 During your Collect Income phase,roll 1d6 and collect that many additional IPCs.

6. Mechanized
     Infantry:    25 Each infantry that is matched up with a tank can move two spaces along with the tank.

Chart 2

1. Supersubs        15 The attack value of your submarines is now 3 instead of 2. The defense value of your submarines remains at 1.

2. Jet Fighters 18 The attack value of your fighters is now 4 instead of 3.

3. Shipyards    15 Cheaper sea unit costs:  Battleship (17) A/C (11) Cruiser (10) Destroyer (7) Transport (6) Submarine (5)

4. Radar 15 Your antiaircraft gun fire now hits on 1 or 2 instead of just a 1.

5. Long Range      38 Your fighters’ range increases from 4 to 6. Your bombers’ range increases from 6 to 8

6. Heavy Bombers 25 You roll two dice for each bomber and select the best result when you attack or make a strategic bombing raid.  On defense, your bombers still roll only a single die

TECH via a POINT SYSTEM v2.2-97.doc

[Imperious Leader]

Any changes to the tech system should involve and reevaluation of the techs and changes respective to encouraging more dynamic play. The OOB choices are very poor and a number of them are very weak modifications.

Real technology that actually existed in the war should be modeled and rules presented that make the game a bit more interesting

Examples: radar, sonar, fast battleships, atomic bomb, mobile warfare doctrine, etc…

Not “advanced artillery” which didn’t exist to any extent that it modifies units

Not “warbonds” which are 8.5 x 11 pieces of paper printed by the government

Not “improved shipyards” which didn’t exist to any extent that ships magically were made for 25% cheaper for the rest of the war

Not “paratroopers” which existed before the war and are not technology. You might as well have as airplanes as technology and remove all of them.

Radar should not apply to AA guns, but also for air units defending in some respect. Thats how it effected the outcome over England in 1940.

[axis_roll]

@Imperious:

Any changes to the tech system should involve and reevaluation of the techs and changes respective to encouraging more dynamic play. The OOB choices are very poor and a number of them are very weak modifications.

Real technology that actually existed in the war should be modeled and rules presented that make the game a bit more interesting

As pointed out many times before, ANY house rules are subjective.  That means one system is no more ‘better’ than another.  It’s best to point out the objectives of any house rule being introduced as to understand the context of why it is being used.

One major principal we try to follow when we make a house rule is the minimalist approach, something I know other great gaming groups embraced like the (late) Caspian Sub Yahoo group.  This also enables more players to adopt a house rule if it’s a simple one to implement.

Too many changes and you are no longer ‘tweaking’ A&A anniversary edition, you would be playing A&A50IL or AARH.

Please don’t get me wrong, this is not necessarily a bad thing.

[Imperious Leader]

The subbing out of 4 suspect technologies for a set of replacement ones that offer alot more interesting ideas for players to pursue and at the same time seem at least a bit more realistic IMO should trump the OOB. IN fact to me changing 4 techs out for new ones is just as KISS is changing the system of obtaining technology.

Its like playing AAP40 out of the box, which is impossible. The minimalist thing does not always trump everything. I just don’t view the OOB as some god or ultimate authority that dictates what everything should be especially considering the latest issues regarding playtesting of the games. The luster of OOB has not much currency with me anymore, because it too changes like the wind and even changes after the game is produced :roll:

I used to be more in favor of keeping the OOB intact especially with MB edition. To me that was a very complete game if the bid was right.