Italy a bad design

[SgtBlitz]

Calvinhobbesliker,

1. You’re up on our Global game for Russia’s turn.  Quit spending all your time whining about the Royal Navy and get to that PBF game!  I’ll never get to mess around with the US’s 82 IPCs a turn at the rate its going!

2.  Yes, its ahistorical that the Germans are killing 90% of the RCN Round 1, but how else did you expect the game designers to balance the game with the UK???  Traditionally, the UK always took a pounding from German navy and air G1 in every single iteration of Axis and Allies.  But they still had a HUGE military advantage; just like the US, their main capital is not in range to be invaded and serves as an unstoppable base to send out units without reprisal.  The UK is realistically never under attack or threat of invasion (unless they’re really dumb with bad UK1 builds), and they get to raid the Germans at will, pretty much like every other A+A game out there, with an insane re-built navy stack, for 2/3s of the game.  Most AA50 games I played Germany usually had to abandon Russia due to UK raids into Poland or Leningrad from the Baltic, and I’d leave an inf stack in Germany just so the Brits couldn’t surprise-attack-end-the-game there.

Hell, the Denmark straits closed rule is the best thing I’ve seen in a long time towards balancing out UK’s insane naval advantage, especially for the Baltic (finally!).  It was incredibly ahistorical that the British could send its entire navy through the Straits of Denmark without worrying about mines or Luftwaffe strikes.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@SgtBlitz:

Calvinhobbesliker,

1. You’re up on our Global game for Russia’s turn.  Quit spending all your time whining about the Royal Navy and get to that PBF game!  I’ll never get to mess around with the US’s 82 IPCs a turn at the rate its going!

2.  Yes, its ahistorical that the Germans are killing 90% of the RCN Round 1, but how else did you expect the game designers to balance the game with the UK???  Traditionally, the UK always took a pounding from German navy and air G1 in every single iteration of Axis and Allies.  But they still had a HUGE military advantage; just like the US, their main capital is not in range to be invaded and serves as an unstoppable base to send out units without reprisal.  The UK is realistically never under attack or threat of invasion (unless they’re really dumb with bad UK1 builds), and they get to raid the Germans at will, pretty much like every other A+A game out there, with an insane re-built navy stack, for 2/3s of the game.  Most AA50 games I played Germany usually had to abandon Russia due to UK raids into Poland or Leningrad from the Baltic, and I’d leave an inf stack in Germany just so the Brits couldn’t surprise-attack-end-the-game there.

Hell, the Denmark straits closed rule is the best thing I’ve seen in a long time towards balancing out UK’s insane naval advantage, especially for the Baltic (finally!).  It was incredibly ahistorical that the British could send its entire navy through the Straits of Denmark without worrying about mines or Luftwaffe strikes.

Well, it is historical that Italy lost or damaged most of their fleet at Taranto and that they did poorly in the Med theater. The game is already balanced with the entire RN getting sunk G1, we don’t need all of Africa falling to Italy as well

[fanofbond]

OK, now that I have finally caught up on this thread now I can make a comment.  I don’t have Europe yet and haven’t played it yet, but I have played Axis and Allies enough that I do know how this can work out. 
Calvinhobbesliker, I can’t remeber if he pointed this out orginally, has a good point with the counter attack by the German aiirforce and remainder of Italian navy.  I have a hard time seeing a bad part to this.  With that attack the allies will the out of the Med for a while, until the US arives any ways. Germany will have more than enough money to purchase enough replacement planes that they wont be hard off.  Then It isn’t like Germany lost any of its fleet in the counter attack.  The RN is gone on G1 and G2, and the German navy and airforce will still be strong enough take care of the rebuilding RN of a while.

Then Blitz you never really mention any ideas for how Italy is to recover.  The way I see for Italy to recover is this. Once the Allied ships are sunk Italy will need to take Gibralter and rebuild a few critical ships in the Med and take Egypt. I don’t really want to mention speciflics because I haven’t played yet and don’t want you guys to jump all over me if I say something wrong.

[miamibeach]

@SgtBlitz:

Calvinhobbesliker,

1. You’re up on our Global game for Russia’s turn.  Quit spending all your time whining about the Royal Navy and get to that PBF game!  I’ll never get to mess around with the US’s 82 IPCs a turn at the rate its going!

We still have a game or not?  We are in the middle of the UK turn.

If not, maybe some of the doom and gloomers about Italy on this thread would like to prove it???

[Zarnak]

I’m in the middle of a game as the Axis.  My G1 build was three subs and a bomber.  (only 6 German subs in the box btw  :x)

I put two subs into 106 against the Canadian fleet.  I put three subs against the destroyer and transport in 109.  I used a large portion of the German air force against the BB and DD in 110.  I had more then enough air force and army to get the job done in France.  I placed the three subs with the German surface fleet in 113.  UK’s European economy loses 9 IPC’s.  It’s a conservative play.  :-P

At the UK turn my opponent is faced w/ a dilemma.  He has a BS and 3 allied cruisers in harms way.  His only DD is by Gibraltar.  The subs are immune to attack unless he uses it.  The German surface fleet is safe from attack as well.  He has 6 subs, a BS, a cruiser, and the Luftwaffe to contend w/ the next turn with two more submarines over by Canada.

So my opponent picks up the aircraft carrier over by Gibraltar, taps it thoughtfully against the board a couple of times…… and then moves it to atack the subs in 109.  The 56 IPC navy left up by England was too much to ignore for him.  Still playing the game.  Thought I’d share.

[Guest]

@fanofbond:

OK, now that I have finally caught up on this thread now I can make a comment.  I don’t have Europe yet and haven’t played it yet, but I have played Axis and Allies enough that I do know how this can work out.  
Calvinhobbesliker, I can’t remeber if he pointed this out orginally, has a good point with the counter attack by the German aiirforce and remainder of Italian navy.  I have a hard time seeing a bad part to this.  With that attack the allies will the out of the Med for a while, until the US arives any ways. Germany will have more than enough money to purchase enough replacement planes that they wont be hard off.  Then It isn’t like Germany lost any of its fleet in the counter attack.  The RN is gone on G1 and G2, and the German navy and airforce will still be strong enough take care of the rebuilding RN of a while.

Then Blitz you never really mention any ideas for how Italy is to recover.  The way I see for Italy to recover is this. Once the Allied ships are sunk Italy will need to take Gibraltar and rebuild a few critical ships in the Med and take Egypt. I don’t really want to mention specifics because I haven’t played yet and don’t want you guys to jump all over me if I say something wrong.

Yes your wrong to an extent. UK fighters in egypt can kill any transport you try to buy to get Gibraltar. The UK has a minor in egypt they purchase turn 2 before Italy takes its 2nd turn with about 12 dollars to spend and no fleet. Also India fighters can often be free to go there as well temporarily. Hell my friend was able to purchase more ships to combine with all the french ships there. Take my word for it, Italy’s situation is a horrid one.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Blitz:

@fanofbond:

OK, now that I have finally caught up on this thread now I can make a comment.  I don’t have Europe yet and haven’t played it yet, but I have played Axis and Allies enough that I do know how this can work out.  
Calvinhobbesliker, I can’t remeber if he pointed this out orginally, has a good point with the counter attack by the German aiirforce and remainder of Italian navy.  I have a hard time seeing a bad part to this.  With that attack the allies will the out of the Med for a while, until the US arives any ways. Germany will have more than enough money to purchase enough replacement planes that they wont be hard off.  Then It isn’t like Germany lost any of its fleet in the counter attack.  The RN is gone on G1 and G2, and the German navy and airforce will still be strong enough take care of the rebuilding RN of a while.

Then Blitz you never really mention any ideas for how Italy is to recover.  The way I see for Italy to recover is this. Once the Allied ships are sunk Italy will need to take Gibraltar and rebuild a few critical ships in the Med and take Egypt. I don’t really want to mention specifics because I haven’t played yet and don’t want you guys to jump all over me if I say something wrong.

Yes your wrong to an extent. UK fighters in egypt can kill any transport you try to buy to get Gibraltar. The UK has a minor in egypt they purchase turn 2 before Italy takes its 2nd turn with about 12 dollars to spend and no fleet. Also India fighters can often be free to go there as well temporarily. Hell my friend was able to purchase more ships to combine with all the french ships there. Take my word for it, Italy’s situation is a horrid one.

Germany on G2 takes out the Med fleet. Italy has a trannie built on I1. UK has no units to counter with as its egypt ftr is dead. Italy takes Gibraltar

[Guest]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Blitz:

@fanofbond:

OK, now that I have finally caught up on this thread now I can make a comment.  I don’t have Europe yet and haven’t played it yet, but I have played Axis and Allies enough that I do know how this can work out.  
Calvinhobbesliker, I can’t remeber if he pointed this out orginally, has a good point with the counter attack by the German aiirforce and remainder of Italian navy.  I have a hard time seeing a bad part to this.  With that attack the allies will the out of the Med for a while, until the US arives any ways. Germany will have more than enough money to purchase enough replacement planes that they wont be hard off.  Then It isn’t like Germany lost any of its fleet in the counter attack.  The RN is gone on G1 and G2, and the German navy and airforce will still be strong enough take care of the rebuilding RN of a while.

Then Blitz you never really mention any ideas for how Italy is to recover.  The way I see for Italy to recover is this. Once the Allied ships are sunk Italy will need to take Gibraltar and rebuild a few critical ships in the Med and take Egypt. I don’t really want to mention specifics because I haven’t played yet and don’t want you guys to jump all over me if I say something wrong.

Yes your wrong to an extent. UK fighters in egypt can kill any transport you try to buy to get Gibraltar. The UK has a minor in egypt they purchase turn 2 before Italy takes its 2nd turn with about 12 dollars to spend and no fleet. Also India fighters can often be free to go there as well temporarily. Hell my friend was able to purchase more ships to combine with all the french ships there. Take my word for it, Italy’s situation is a horrid one.

Germany on G2 takes out the Med fleet. Italy has a trannie built on I1. UK has no units to counter with as its egypt ftr is dead. Italy takes Gibraltar

Once again you operate under to many assumptions. Your assuming the Lufwaffte is successful G2 and you assume it’s a good idea to devote your planes there instead of elsewhere. You also assume the US is not moving these 3 rounds it takes for italy to get gibralter under control. To many “if” and “shoulds” for your suggestion to be a cure all counter.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Blitz:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Blitz:

@fanofbond:

OK, now that I have finally caught up on this thread now I can make a comment.  I don’t have Europe yet and haven’t played it yet, but I have played Axis and Allies enough that I do know how this can work out.  
Calvinhobbesliker, I can’t remeber if he pointed this out orginally, has a good point with the counter attack by the German aiirforce and remainder of Italian navy.  I have a hard time seeing a bad part to this.  With that attack the allies will the out of the Med for a while, until the US arives any ways. Germany will have more than enough money to purchase enough replacement planes that they wont be hard off.  Then It isn’t like Germany lost any of its fleet in the counter attack.  The RN is gone on G1 and G2, and the German navy and airforce will still be strong enough take care of the rebuilding RN of a while.

Then Blitz you never really mention any ideas for how Italy is to recover.  The way I see for Italy to recover is this. Once the Allied ships are sunk Italy will need to take Gibraltar and rebuild a few critical ships in the Med and take Egypt. I don’t really want to mention specifics because I haven’t played yet and don’t want you guys to jump all over me if I say something wrong.

Yes your wrong to an extent. UK fighters in egypt can kill any transport you try to buy to get Gibraltar. The UK has a minor in egypt they purchase turn 2 before Italy takes its 2nd turn with about 12 dollars to spend and no fleet. Also India fighters can often be free to go there as well temporarily. Hell my friend was able to purchase more ships to combine with all the french ships there. Take my word for it, Italy’s situation is a horrid one.

Germany on G2 takes out the Med fleet. Italy has a trannie built on I1. UK has no units to counter with as its egypt ftr is dead. Italy takes Gibraltar

Once again you operate under to many assumptions. Your assuming the Lufwaffte is successful G2 and you assume it’s a good idea to devote your planes there instead of elsewhere. You also assume the US is not moving these 3 rounds it takes for italy to get gibralter under control. To many “if” and “shoulds” for your suggestion to be a cure all counter.

Okay, the Med fleet is a DD, CC, CV, ftr, tac. The defense is 14, with 6 casualties needed to die. Germans attack with 6 planes, 4 ftrs, tac, bomber. Attack is 20 and takes 6 hits. Germany survives with 2 planes, maybe fighter and bomber. If Germany built a bomber G1, the attack is 24, and Germany may survive with ftr, tac, 2 bmr. Germany has 60+ ipc’s to repair everything. Germany loses 30-40 ipc’s in planes, allies lose 56 ipc’s of navy. Where else can Germany attack G2 with those planes? A G2 Barbarossa will be premature. I haven’t advocated the Gib strat, but Italy can take Gib on I2, not I3. Furthermore, the US won’t be at war for 1-2 turns, so Italy is safe there.

[miamibeach]

Calvin, you and I are banging our heads against a brick wall.  These guys are entrenched in their positions.  Their only medicine is to learn in a real game against worthy opponents.  Any takers Blitz and the rest of you?

[calvinhobbesliker]

@miamibeach:

Calvin, you and I are banging our heads against a brick wall.  These guys are entrenched in their positions.  Their only medicine is to learn in a real game against worthy opponents.  Any takers Blitz and the rest of you?

I’m actually playing a game right now. I will be moving Russia when I get the game tomorrow(hopefully, unless they get delayed).

[chompers]

@miamibeach:

Calvin, you and I are banging our heads against a brick wall.  These guys are entrenched in their positions.  Their only medicine is to learn in a real game against worthy opponents.  Any takers Blitz and the rest of you?

I don’t think insulting the playing ability of the people you’re arguing with is the best way to present your points.  Furthermore, every idea I’ve seen on here so far involves committing German resources to the Med that are already stretched to their limit preparing for or embarking upon their two front war.  Every German unit and IPC is absolutely critical to implementing an effective attack on either the UK (which in my opinion is madness as the US will snatch back GB the turn following the unlikely event that Sea Lion is even pulled off successfully, thus negating any sort of economic advantage to be gained while wasting your first 3 German turns of purchases) or Russia (the distance between German IC’s and Moscow meaning you need absolutely every available bit of power you can squeeze out of Germany to be able to bring an attack to a successful conclusion, if it’s even possible without Jap support).  Replacing planes lost in the Med counterattack or building German IC’s to churn out ships on the Med are HUGE INVESTMENTS during turns where it’s crucial to be spending every available point on setting up to achieve your overall war goal.  And the shadow of US all-in on the Atlantic looms over all these suggestions for Axis counter-moves.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@chompers:

@miamibeach:

Calvin, you and I are banging our heads against a brick wall.  These guys are entrenched in their positions.  Their only medicine is to learn in a real game against worthy opponents.  Any takers Blitz and the rest of you?

I don’t think insulting the playing ability of the people you’re arguing with is the best way to present your points.  Furthermore, every idea I’ve seen on here so far involves committing German resources to the Med that are already stretched to their limit preparing for or embarking upon their two front war.  Every German unit and IPC is absolutely critical to implementing an effective attack on either the UK (which in my opinion is madness as the US will snatch back GB the turn following the unlikely event that Sea Lion is even pulled off successfully, thus negating any sort of economic advantage to be gained while wasting your first 3 German turns of purchases) or Russia (the distance between German IC’s and Moscow meaning you need absolutely every available bit of power you can squeeze out of Germany to be able to bring an attack to a successful conclusion, if it’s even possible without Jap support).  Replacing planes lost in the Med counterattack or building German IC’s to churn out ships on the Med are HUGE INVESTMENTS during turns where it’s crucial to be spending every available point on setting up to achieve your overall war goal.  And the shadow of US all-in on the Atlantic looms over all these suggestions for Axis counter-moves.

Historically, Germany had to help Italy in the Med. Italy rarely acted alone. The game stays true to this. If you want Italy to conquer Africa, you must sacrifice some momentum on Russia.

[chompers]

Historically, the Axis lost the war too.  It seems they may have taken a page or two too many from the history books rather than worrying about an even fight in Europe/Africa.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@chompers:

Historically, the Axis lost the war too.  It seems they may have taken a page or two too many from the history books rather than worrying about an even fight in Europe/Africa.

Okay, the axis already got the sinking of 80% of the RN. Now they want to take over 90% of Africa?

[chompers]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@chompers:

Historically, the Axis lost the war too.  It seems they may have taken a page or two too many from the history books rather than worrying about an even fight in Europe/Africa.

Okay, the axis already got the sinking of 80% of the RN. Now they want to take over 90% of Africa?

We go around in circles a lot here.  Taking Egypt does not automatically equate to taking all/or most of Africa.  There’s an IC in South Africa that can churn out some units to counterattack the shattered remnants of whatever Italians actually survive the conquest of Egypt.  The Allies as a whole have a vast IPC advantage over the Axis and it seems that the game was balanced so that it’s up to Japan to do 80% of the heavy lifting in order to bridge that gap, with Italy contributing essentially nothing.  Heck, the Brits don’t even need a fleet.  They can just do army buys their first 4 turns, wait for the US to roll into SZ 110 in force, and then just plop down transports and 1-2 punch Normandy using the Americans for cover.

[Guest]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@chompers:

Historically, the Axis lost the war too.  It seems they may have taken a page or two too many from the history books rather than worrying about an even fight in Europe/Africa.

Okay, the axis already got the sinking of 80% of the RN. Now they want to take over 90% of Africa?

Your too much of an apologist for the UK. And instead of dissecting individual nations and their capabilities you reduce it to comparisons between apples and oranges. The UK secures london turn 1 and then just has to carefully build a fleet against germany which the US can easily assist in.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@chompers:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@chompers:

Historically, the Axis lost the war too.  It seems they may have taken a page or two too many from the history books rather than worrying about an even fight in Europe/Africa.

Okay, the axis already got the sinking of 80% of the RN. Now they want to take over 90% of Africa?

We go around in circles a lot here.  Taking Egypt does not automatically equate to taking all/or most of Africa.  There’s an IC in South Africa that can churn out some units to counterattack the shattered remnants of whatever Italians actually survive the conquest of Egypt.  The Allies as a whole have a vast IPC advantage over the Axis and it seems that the game was balanced so that it’s up to Japan to do 80% of the heavy lifting in order to bridge that gap, with Italy contributing essentially nothing.  Heck, the Brits don’t even need a fleet.  They can just do army buys their first 4 turns, wait for the US to roll into SZ 110 in force, and then just plop down transports and 1-2 punch Normandy using the Americans for cover.

If Italy has taken Egypt, it probably has both NO’s, giving it 30-35 ipc’s. Meanwhile, the UK has less than 27 ipc’s. Italy can build more units for Africa than Britain.

Let America take Normandy. germany can retake it from West Germany.

What do you mean I’m an apologist for the UK? I think you have the wrong word. Apologist means I am apologizing for their crimes by justifying them. I’m not doing that.

[chompers]

Both America and GB can land in Germany simultaneously as their turns occur after the Germans, coincidentally with a pretty large army as that’s all GB bought your first 4 turns. They create the beachhead while the US continuously supplies it with 5-6 transports worth of guys every turn along with 2-3 Brit transports of stuff.  Either way, you don’t really need a Brit fleet at all in certain situations.  Admittedly it limits your options for landings as you only have 1 fleet for cover, but it’s stuff like this the Allies can get away with while the European Axis are forced to fight tooth and nail for every bit of IPC’s after their first round conquests, and cannot afford to spend frivolously.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@chompers:

Both America and GB can land in Germany simultaneously as their turns occur after the Germans, coincidentally with a pretty large army as that’s all GB bought your first 4 turns. They create the beachhead while the US continuously supplies it with 5-6 transports worth of guys every turn along with 2-3 Brit transports of stuff.  Either way, you don’t really need a Brit fleet at all in certain situations.  Admittedly it limits your options for landings as you only have 1 fleet for cover, but it’s stuff like this the Allies can get away with while the European Axis are forced to fight tooth and nail for every bit of IPC’s after their first round conquests, and cannot afford to spend frivolously.

Then the US needs 5 inf and 5 art, let’s say. That’s 35 ipc’s. Thus, the US has 55 ipcs left over. Japan is spending its 80 ipc’s on North America, for example. How do you prevent this situation from happening?