Italy can’t go first. The axis are already too powerful. I have never won a Europe game playing against myself on the europe board with allies. Italy going before UK would mean Italy is a juggernaut! Also keep the french units. They don’t do much, but making them UK wouldn’t be historical at all.
AAG40 balance Poll
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@Jake:
If the US liberates Paris,
then France collects income…
and then Germany may conquer again Paris and get the french money.
:-DYou’re right. That doesn’t mean it’s going to be a walk in the park though.
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@UN:
Nah, france can be smashed with ground units, from my count germany has
6 inf, 2 art, 4 mech, 6 arm in range, allies have
7 inf, 2 art, 2 arm, 1 fig, meaning allies lose. Even the other 2 french territories can be taken on G1 if they want, although it may force them to use a plane or two, as there is only 1 inf on one, and an inf/art on the other.The UK has a massive fleet to begin the game with, and will almost always build a carrier turn 1, and i’m not sure but i’m assuming atleast a battleship will survive. I mean UK alone starts with 5 DD / 4 Cru / 1 AC / 2 BB / 3 Trans, that is alot of hits! Not to mention the 4 french boats helping to shield them. You will want to kill every UK boat on turn 1 you can, or Germany will be screwed.
That still doesn’t count as an automatic win for the Axis. Again, Axis victory in France is virtually guaranteed, but I sill use the word “virtual”, not absolute. Perhaps the Allies can still score a victory in death, say, if most of their units get hits. That’s going to inflict horrible losses on the Germans.
Counting all the units from the GSG, Holland/Belgium, and West Germany territories; Germany will have 6 inf, 2 art, 4 mec, and 5 tanks in range of the French territories. An aggressive Germany could send 2 inf and 1 art from Holland/Belgium against Normandy/Bordeaux, 1 mec and 1 tank (probably with a tac for support) through Italy to Southern France, and still have 4 inf, 1 art, 3 mec, and 4 tanks for Paris (about 87% chance of victory). This means that simply by using a couple planes Germany can take out all of France on the first turn relatively easily and leave themselves the rest of their airforce for the Allied Navy.
So it’s looking like France won’t be around for very long, just like Larry said, and Germany won’t have to worry too badly about immediate reprisals from the UK. Whether that’s good or bad remains to be seen…
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@SAS:
@UN:
Nah, france can be smashed with ground units, from my count germany has
6 inf, 2 art, 4 mech, 6 arm in range, allies have
7 inf, 2 art, 2 arm, 1 fig, meaning allies lose. Even the other 2 french territories can be taken on G1 if they want, although it may force them to use a plane or two, as there is only 1 inf on one, and an inf/art on the other.The UK has a massive fleet to begin the game with, and will almost always build a carrier turn 1, and i’m not sure but i’m assuming atleast a battleship will survive. I mean UK alone starts with 5 DD / 4 Cru / 1 AC / 2 BB / 3 Trans, that is alot of hits! Not to mention the 4 french boats helping to shield them. You will want to kill every UK boat on turn 1 you can, or Germany will be screwed.
That still doesn’t count as an automatic win for the Axis. Again, Axis victory in France is virtually guaranteed, but I sill use the word “virtual”, not absolute. Perhaps the Allies can still score a victory in death, say, if most of their units get hits. That’s going to inflict horrible losses on the Germans.
Counting all the units from the GSG, Holland/Belgium, and West Germany territories; Germany will have 6 inf, 2 art, 4 mec, and 5 tanks in range of the French territories. An aggressive Germany could send 2 inf and 1 art from Holland/Belgium against Normandy/Bordeaux, 1 mec and 1 tank (probably with a tac for support) through Italy to Southern France, and still have 4 inf, 1 art, 3 mec, and 4 tanks for Paris (about 87% chance of victory). This means that simply by using a couple planes Germany can take out all of France on the first turn relatively easily and leave themselves the rest of their airforce for the Allied Navy.
So it’s looking like France won’t be around for very long, just like Larry said, and Germany won’t have to worry too badly about immediate reprisals from the UK. Whether that’s good or bad remains to be seen…
And as I said, victory is almost guaranteed. But 87% is not quite 100%.
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This is true, but my point is that adding just 1 tac (with its attack of 4 with the tanks) to that attack gives you 1 95% chance of success in Paris. If you change the scenario by sending 2 mec to Southern France with the tank and send 2 tacs to Paris it gets even better.
France Attack Scenario
Normandy:
2 inf, 1 art v. 1 inf - 97.9% chance of victorySouthern France:
2 mec, 1 tank v. 1 inf - 98.5% chance of victoryFrance:
4 inf, 1 art, 2 mec, 4 tank, 2 tac v. 6 inf, 1 art, 1 tnk, 1 ftr - 96.7% chance of victoryLeaving Germany with 5 subs, 4 fighters, 1 tac bomber, and 1 strat bomber for any naval strikes they want to make. Walk in to your pro-Axis neutrals, attack Yugoslavia and maybe Norway if you feel lucky and there’s your G1 move.
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I would leave Southern France for the Italians. I think the opening moves for Germany and UK need to be looked at through the prism of a possible “Sea Lion”, thanks to SgtBlitz. Use the 2TAC for Sea Lion and instead use the 2 MECH, 1 ARM on France.
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@Jake:
If the US liberates Paris,
then France collects income…
and then Germany may conquer again Paris and get the french money.
:-DConsidering the IPC gain, it looks like there will be a good incentive for Germany to launch a desparate Bulge-style counterattack in that situation. Should force the Allies to only take Paris when they have sufficient strength to hold it, as trading the territory would only benefit the Germans.
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Well, it looks like Germany can buzz England G1 with almost its entire air force (3 fig, 3 tac, 1 bomber) and KO the RAF the first round (2 inf and 3 fig plus AA hits defending). I’d say that’s a pretty large Axis advantage, tied to a Sealion attempt.
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Yeah, I can’t wait to try out strategies for this game, there are so many possibilities it is going to be really fun to play.
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UN SPacey said
And as I said, victory is almost guaranteed
Spacey has the right thinking. Given enough time,there will be games where G1 attack fails due to really bad dice rolls (boxcars and 5-fever) for G and all bullseyes and deuces for France. A lethal first two rounds that tilt the balance to France. Germany will come out and roll a quick 5-5-5-5-5 (say it fast so it sounds like a machine gun) for two rounds while France uses those “special” dice and voila, victoire…Vive le France!! It will happen
on side note…my brother has one weird die that I call “Cyclops”. Its an ugly whitish-yellow die with a giant dot for the 1…now i dont want to call him a cheater plus i dont think he would go out of his way to rig a die but this dammed thing rolls 1 after 1 after 1. when he pulls it out we both laugh and then he rolls a dammed 1 and i fume.its really amazing. im sure there is a scientific explanation,like lead painted dots for the 6 ( which is opposite the 1 on the die).
edit to use digits instead of spelling numbers
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What I’m worried about is the German player instantly quits the game if France has not fallen by G2. It’s not doom and gloom, people. It just means Sealion is no longer an option. :roll:
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@UN:
What I’m worried about is the German player instantly quits the game if France has not fallen by G2. It’s not doom and gloom, people. It just means Sealion is no longer an option. :roll:
If I were Germany, I don’t know if I’d quit… but there would be a dark cloud over me until something wonderful went my way. France not falling after 2 turns is a huge deal. I don’t know how often you play with Germany, but you cannot waste time or units. Unless Germany was only making halfhearted attempts to take France (ie… Infantry ans Artillery), it would worry me a lot that I was wasting so much time and resources on something that shouldn’t be a hard nut to crack. It becomes wasteful on Germany’s part; waste they cannot afford when they will need to move many of those units (esp Air units) East. Germany will need to pay more attention than ever to Russia in this game. I could see Germany not taking France quickly as a sign of failure for the Axis.
But I guess we’ll see how this all works out.
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on side note…my brother has one weird die that I call “Cyclops”. Its an ugly whitish-yellow die with a giant dot for the 1…now i dont want to call him a cheater plus i dont think he would go out of his way to rig a die but this dammed thing rolls 1 after 1 after 1. when he pulls it out we both laugh and then he rolls a dammed 1 and i fume.its really amazing. im sure there is a scientific explanation,like lead painted dots for the 6 ( which is opposite the 1 on the die). edit to use digits instead of spelling numbers
It is probably because the side with the huge 1 is lighter because of less material. More was carved out so the other sides are heavier.
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@UN:
What I’m worried about is the German player instantly quits the game if France has not fallen by G2. It’s not doom and gloom, people. It just means Sealion is no longer an option. :roll:
If I were Germany, I don’t know if I’d quit… but there would be a dark cloud over me until something wonderful went my way. France not falling after 2 turns is a huge deal. I don’t know how often you play with Germany, but you cannot waste time or units. Unless Germany was only making halfhearted attempts to take France (ie… Infantry ans Artillery), it would worry me a lot that I was wasting so much time and resources on something that shouldn’t be a hard nut to crack. It becomes wasteful on Germany’s part; waste they cannot afford when they will need to move many of those units (esp Air units) East. Germany will need to pay more attention than ever to Russia in this game. I could see Germany not taking France quickly as a sign of failure for the Axis.
But I guess we’ll see how this all works out.
Let me correct myself. I meant that it wouldn’t be right to instantly quit the game if France hasn’t fallen by the BEGINNING of Germany’s second turn. By G2 France probably will have fallen by the end of their turn.
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keep in mind even if by some miracle France does survive G1, it will not survive I1, period.
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@SAS:
This is true, but my point is that adding just 1 tac (with its attack of 4 with the tanks) to that attack gives you 1 95% chance of success in Paris. If you change the scenario by sending 2 mec to Southern France with the tank and send 2 tacs to Paris it gets even better.
France Attack Scenario
Normandy:
2 inf, 1 art v. 1 inf - 97.9% chance of victorySouthern France:
2 mec, 1 tank v. 1 inf - 98.5% chance of victoryFrance:
4 inf, 1 art, 2 mec, 4 tank, 2 tac v. 6 inf, 1 art, 1 tnk, 1 ftr - 96.7% chance of victoryLeaving Germany with 5 subs, 4 fighters, 1 tac bomber, and 1 strat bomber for any naval strikes they want to make. Walk in to your pro-Axis neutrals, attack Yugoslavia and maybe Norway if you feel lucky and there’s your G1 move.
I missed the fact that there are UK units in France as well (1 inf, 1 art, and 1 tank), which means Germany will have to commit more units to Paris, so yeah, Southern France might have to wait until I1 depending… And yes there will be the occasional miracle Paris save G1, but my point was that France will be in dire straights even without committing the whole German air force.
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@UN:
If I were Germany, I don’t know if I’d quit… but there would be a dark cloud over me until something wonderful went my way. France not falling after 2 turns is a huge deal. I don’t know how often you play with Germany, but you cannot waste time or units. Unless Germany was only making halfhearted attempts to take France (ie… Infantry ans Artillery), it would worry me a lot that I was wasting so much time and resources on something that shouldn’t be a hard nut to crack. It becomes wasteful on Germany’s part; waste they cannot afford when they will need to move many of those units (esp Air units) East. Germany will need to pay more attention than ever to Russia in this game. I could see Germany not taking France quickly as a sign of failure for the Axis.
But I guess we’ll see how this all works out.
Let me correct myself. I meant that it wouldn’t be right to instantly quit the game if France hasn’t fallen by the BEGINNING of Germany’s second turn. By G2 France probably will have fallen by the end of their turn.
Okay, understood. I wouldn’t quit right away if I didn’t take France on G1… that would be kinda dumb for the German player to do. Not very polite to everyone else.
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I was assuming Southern France was needed for a possible minor ic for transports to Africa, though Yugoslavia will work just as well.
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