Italy active on turn 1... What?

[AdmirlScuttlebut]

@superbattleshipyamato Glad to hear there is some interest. After I play around with it I will post more.
The Admiril

[Chris_Henry]

Sorry for replying to an older thread here! I just got a copy of 1914 with the Renegade Studios release, and we started and almost finished our first game just yesterday.

I’d first say I’ve really enjoyed the game! I’m a massive fan of the larger games (1940 and Global War), but it’s fun to have a game like this that can more or less be finished in a single day when there isn’t maybe time for the larger ones!

I too was struck immediately by Italy being a belligerent nation from the beginning of the game. Unless I’ve misunderstood at times, the general consensus is that it’s awfully hard for the Central Powers to win I think? That could give credence to a small change with Italy as well. I know I typically don’t like to make massive changes to rules and setups, so a delayed entry by Italy could be very intriguing.

I have a couple questions on your proposals though, and I’m curious how they’ve played out for you.

1. My initial thought is that waiting until turn 3 for Italy to join the game is far too late. My largest reasoning for saying that is because the US enters on turn 4. If your reasoning is historical, I don’t think a single turn is fairly representing the two years in between Italy and the US joining the war historically, when the preceding 3 turns encompass less than a year between the historic start of the war and Italy joining. So my real question is, what about delaying Italy only a single turn? Does that present any real changes you think?

2. My other big notice from what you said is not allowing Italy to purchase any units until such time as they enter the war. I get in some ways why this might be needed to avoid just having them be as strong as they might have otherwise. But how are you justifying allowing the USA to purchase units every turn until they join, while not allowing Italy to? Again, I mostly don’t like making too picky of nation-specific rules like that (i.e. if not allowing one neutral country to purchase units, then no neutral country should be allowed to purchase units, etc.).

Curious on your thoughts! Still learning this one of course, so I’m super curious!

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@chris_henry

Talk to The Good Captain. He’s made multiple videos explaining 1914 strategy for both sides and how the Central Powers can win. He’s right when he says Central Powers strategies are non-intuitive. After several games, I’ve learned a lot from him.

About making things more historically accurate but also simple (so no possibility of Italy joining the Central Powers, a whole other set of house rules and discussions), I always saw each round as one year, so delaying Italy by one turn and allowing it to build units seems sufficient. Italy goes to war at the start of its second turn, the Central Powers can attack it earlier if they want, Italy operates under the same neutral rules as the US (no crossing over to territories of other powers).

Albania can be activated by Italy when not at war, although other powers cannot activate it when Italy is not at war.

If Albania is attacked by the Central Powers Italy doesn’t go to war. The Albanian units act as if they are at war however.

Keep in mind these rules are not compatible with TripleA and are player enforced.

[Chris_Henry]

@superbattleshipyamato Thanks, I’ll check those videos by him out!

Yeah, I’d agree with you on the turn length in time, a year is probably about right. Goes to the point of waiting until turn three a bit late in my opinion if house ruling for historical accuracy.

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@chris_henry

Agreed. The US joins the war on turn 3, so it would be 1917. That was also the year the Russian Revolution occurred, and the third turn is when the Revolution rule goes into effect, so it fits perfectly.

[TheVeteran]

@superbattleshipyamato actually US doesnt join until turn 4.

[TheVeteran]

@chris_henry also with inexperienced players - even with a bit of experience yes it does seem like the game heavily favors the entente but with a bit of luck and or good play the CP can also be dominant with OOB rules. i’ve now lost 7 games i think playing as the entente against @Ragnell804 who was able to dominate me as the CP in each of those games. he only lost one against me when we played with low luck.

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@theveteran

Agreed, The Good Captain smashed me the two times we played World War 1 with him as the Central Powers.

[Chris_Henry]

Thanks guys! Yeah, haven’t gotten a chance to finish the game yet, but I’m definitely seeing spots where I could have done better as the CP already. I watched some of The Good Captains videos like you said, and I most definitely misplayed the CP navies right away at the very least!

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@Chris_Henry

Agreed, I didn’t learn about it until after watching his videos.

[AdmirlScuttlebut]

@SuperbattleshipYamato I agree that a one turn delay is the best idea for those that are looking for a historical tweek.

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@AdmirlScuttlebut

:+1:

[GabeNASA]

@AdmirlScuttlebut

When I first looked at possibly getting AA 1914 and reviewed the rules online - my very FIRST thought was that Italy should be a variable entry. Referring to history, they could have gone either way! I agree with you - keep it up! My first idea was perhaps simply let Italy sit out turn 1 - then entry thereafter is based on a die roll of some sort such as 1, 2 = they go Entente (as per History) 3, 4, 5 = stay neutral that turn, and 6 = they go with Central Powers (as per their agreement before 1914).

I hope to see more on this. Gabe

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@GabeNASA

I don’t think Italy would ally with the Central Powers with how things actually played out. Only neutral.

I do have a more comprehensive house rule which pretends Germany didn’t attack France and France attacked Germany, making it indisputable for Italy to join.

But yeah, dice rolls work as well.

[PizzaPete]

@SuperbattleshipYamato

While I agree that there wasn’t much chance of Italy coming in with the central powers, the nations engaged in the war in 1914 could not be sure of that, and I think it would be interesting to try a game where the players are also unsure.

I like the die roll for the uncertainty it adds, but I’d be concerned to give something that could have such a big impact on the outcome of the game wholly to a die roll without first giving players an opportunity to exert some sort of influence on the outcome.

I wonder if it might be more fun to roll a die each round to see if Italy enters. If they do, the side they choose could be determined by the status of the western front. Maybe select a few territories and Italy joins whichever alliance controls the majority of them. The selected territories should be an uphill fight for Germany to get more than half of, and depending on how many territories are contested, there could be a tie, in which case Italy joins the entente.

This would not only add some uncertainty into when and how Italy comes in, but also some variation to Gemany’s strategy. A little bit more for the western front could pay back bigger than it cost you, or it could turn out to be a waste.

It’s not a terribly historical idea, but it could be pretty fun.

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@PizzaPete said in Italy active on turn 1... What?:

@SuperbattleshipYamato

While I agree that there wasn’t much chance of Italy coming in with the central powers, the nations engaged in the war in 1914 could not be sure of that, and I think it would be interesting to try a game where the players are also unsure.

That’s a unique idea, and from that perspective I’m okay with dice rolls.

I wonder if it might be more fun to roll a die each round to see if Italy enters. If they do, the side they choose could be determined by the status of the western front. Maybe select a few territories and Italy joins whichever alliance controls the majority of them. The selected territories should be an uphill fight for Germany to get more than half of, and depending on how many territories are contested, there could be a tie, in which case Italy joins the entente.

I really like this. Maybe there could also be a mechanism to forestall an Italian entry into the war even if the requirements are met if Austria-Hungary either (I’m still thinking of which house rule to do):

Turn Trieste into an Italian territory (Central Powers have one turn to evacuate)

Austria-Hungary loses 2-4 IPCs (unsure of the exact number yet) per turn, representing them ceding territory to Italy.

This would not only add some uncertainty into when and how Italy comes in, but also some variation to Gemany’s strategy. A little bit more for the western front could pay back bigger than it cost you, or it could turn out to be a waste.

It’s not a terribly historical idea, but it could be pretty fun.

Agreed!

[PizzaPete]

@SuperbattleshipYamato said in Italy active on turn 1... What?:

@PizzaPete said in Italy active on turn 1... What?:

@SuperbattleshipYamato
Maybe there could also be a mechanism to forestall an Italian entry into the war even if the requirements are met if Austria-Hungary either (I’m still thinking of which house rule to do):

Turn Trieste into an Italian territory (Central Powers have one turn to evacuate)

Austria-Hungary loses 2-4 IPCs (unsure of the exact number yet), representing them ceding territory to Italy.

I like that idea a lot. It would add yet another layer of choice to the central powers, and it is a good historical fit too. Between the two options, I’m leaning toward handing over Trieste, but I’d want to try both a few times and see how it plays out.

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@PizzaPete

Great! 👍👍👍😄

[AdmirlScuttlebut]

@AdmirlScuttlebut
Yes turn two is the turn Italy must enter if playing this variant. I think it dovetails nicely with The Good Captains ideas.

[AdmirlScuttlebut]

@AdmirlScuttlebut After some thought about a historic start date for Italy it would have to be, Italy neutral on turn 1 and Austria Hungary can’t break their neutrality until turn 2. This is the only way to allow Italy to build some additional units before it has to face a AH invasion which is the favored tactic in the OOB game. I am going to start another thread to introduce another of my pet peeves about A&A 1914.