Italy

You cant have a game where a major nation just switches sides, or you face balance issues. Italy fought against AH and latter against the other central powers, so it wasn’t really neutral or whatever.

If you want a free for all, just have a diplomacy style game with no set alliances. If you do WW1, then keep what is true about that war and model it.

People HIGHLY over estimate the swing power of Italy, there was just no way they were going to fight on the same side of their hated enemy AH. The nationalists have complete control in the government, the only major pro-central Italian commander died a few months before they joined, and all of the Italian government’s goals were aimed towards the Adriatic, not to the west.

Go read The White War: Life and death on the Italian front, before you claim that Italy must be neutral.

Plus, even if Italy had joined the war on the Central powers they would have only dragged more German units away as the Italians would have been slaughtered by the French even more so than they were slaughtered by AH.

Italy felt it could get more from the promises of the Treaty of London, which ceded lands formerly under Austro- Hungary control, as well as sections of Africa. The centrals powers gave no such promises. Italy always picks the deal/side that gives them the most land, sometimes this works other times not. The Central powers really could not give them anything except perhaps part of south France.

Exactly. Germany pushed AH to cede Trieste but AH refused, they disliked Italy just as much as Italy disliked them.

Treaty of London was signed in 1915.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_London_(1915)

G. & A. offered Tunisia and a smaller slice of Tyrol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy_in_WWI#From_neutrality_to_the_intervention_in_the_war

My preference is that Italy joins the Allies in May 1915 (turn 4 on my chronology) UNLESS the CPs fulfill certain conditions, probably based on capturing French tt. Italy would be less likely to join the Allies if it looked like the CP would win.

I could see Italy as sort of like… a “sponsor state” of the Allies.

Maybe have some sort of rule that requires Austria to keep units on their border territories or else Italian units can attack (aided by other Allied units). This would require the CP to invest resources in that direction, but they would only widen the war and stretch themselves thin if they were to actually invade.

I’m not sure “historically” Italy needs to see any major combat; perhaps the war between them and Austria could just be “assumed” to be going on, but small enough territory is trading hands as to not be depicted on the map, due to scale.

But the war on the border drained a lot of resources from both countries. It was only when Austria was “stiffened” with German units that any progress was made; which was in turn driven back when Italy was “stiffened” by British and French reinforcements.

The simplest rule for Italy would be:

In Spring 1915 Italy must decide.

If, at the end of Winter 1914/15, The CPs control a mainland tt of France, then Italy joins the war on the side of the Central Powers.

If France is still free of occupation, then the Allies can pay X IPC (to the bank!) to persuade Italy to join the war on their side.

If neither condition is met, then Italy declares neutrality for the duration, and can only be activated if somebody attacks it.

Suggestions for some other countries:

Serbia is assumed to begin at war due to the declaration of war and being shelled by Austria in July. Same for Montenegro?

Turkey joins the CP immediately any CP warship docks in the Sublime Porte. It will not join the Allies as long as Russia is a member.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pursuit_of_Goeben_and_Breslau

Bulgaria will join the CP when Serbia is invaded by a CP army of at least 6 units. Bulgaria is immediately activated and may join in the attack on Serbia.
Possibly allow the Allies to pay cash to keep Bulgaria out?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria_in_WWI#The_end_of_neutrality

Portugal - depends on the map including southern Africa; Portugal’s main reason for hostility to Germany seems to have been German designs on Angola:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_in_World_War_I

Romania has a choice, since the CP (Bessarabia) & the Allies (Transylvania) can both offer it a majority Romanian province from a defeated enemy. Romania demanded military back-up, so perhaps something like:

Romania will join the Allies if at least 6 Allied land units invade Transylvania. Romania can join in this attack.

Romania will join the CP if at least 6 CP land units attack Bessarabia. Romania can join in this attack.

Gives a rather nice dynamic to the Austria-Russian conflict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania_during_World_War_I

USA. Reading the rules for Paths of Glory:

http://www.gmtgames.com/living_rules/pog_rules_2004.pdf

the game has a built-in mechanism whereby American entry is accelerated by Russia’s decline, the two events calculated to balance.

The simplest way is:

If/when Russia is reduced to “disorder” status (q.v.), then Germany (if it has not already done so) automatically declares unrestricted sinking of Allied ships.

The idea here is that, with Russia in chaos, Germany believed it could finish off the western powers with men freed from the eastern front before America could get mobilized; therefore America declares war the turn after Russia falls into disorder (i.e. the fall of the Tzar/February Revolution). Remember that America had a very small standing army so it’ll take time for the Yanks to arrive in numbers. This is what Germany has to calculate when pushing hard against Russia; it still has to push Russia further before Revolution knocks it out of the war altogether.

Ideally, if Russia stays in the war there has to be a chance for the Allies to win without American support.

Greece evidently had difficulty with its German king. In effect, the country could be said to have joined the Allies in 1915 when they invited in Allied forces (Salonika) in response to Bulgarian entry into the war.
But since this was opposed by the King, war was not officially declared until he left the country in June 1917.

So…

If Bulgaria enters the war on the CP side; Allied forces may occupy any Greek tt other than Athens (i.e. Crete, Salonika, Corfu).

Greek forces may help defend these tts, but may not attack others.

If the CP attacks any Greek tt to fight Allies based there Greece is moved to “at war” status.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Modern_Greece#World_War_I

I shall also post:

1. Much simplified version of the above

2. Suggestions for countries that remained neutral (Netherlands, Spain, Scandinavia)

@Croesus:

The largest problem  I see with this game is that the entrance of countries makes and breaks the war.
Italy’s historical swing could doom France or grant it salvation. The timing of revolution, bulgarians, and Ottomen can decide a war in a heartbeat.

However, Italy must be allowed to swing.
How might this be represented, without immediately deciding the war?
I’m okay with anachronisms, but I feel Italy’s swing is too important to be predetermined.

also, if this thread becomes the fourth duel between IL and extraneous users who want special rules, I will cry.
This Thread is about ITALY, not the russian revolution, Vorbeck, Flashman, IL, or anyone else.

My group did a simple system that worked quite well and did not unbalance the game.

At the end of each round each side rolls a set of dice. Allies get 6, CP get 3.
Modifiers: If CP controls at least 1 French AND 1 Russian Territory, add 5 to CP.
If Allies control at least 1 CP territory, add 5 to Allied.

There may have been others, it was many years ago.

Also, each power may spend up to 5 IPC per turn to bribe italy, essentially. Add 1 to your side’s total for each IPC you bribed with (for simplicity we only keep track of the margin of difference)

If one sides total is ever more than the other’s during those rolls by a certian margin (again can’t remember how many), italy joins that side at the start of the turn, and all IPC used to bribe are put in bank.

We toyed with the idea of giving the side that lost half their IPC’s back (since they made promises they no longer had to try to keep, but college happened)

Tad late to this topic but the 'Minor Powers"thread has just been so engrossing :evil:
If your doing the Great War in anything besides a "Diplomancy"type game Italy can’t swing
(as other posters have noted).

Her self interest were such that only AH territory would make joining  the war worth the cost.
(It turned out to be one hell of a high cost).

I agree it would be an interesting addition to fool around with Italian entry & some of the lesser
powers for that matter but doing so moves you out of WWI.It’s a fine line I know,Germany can
defeat France or Russia can march to Berlin but Italy can’t become a CP.

You change the course of the war as you play the game that’s a given but if you change the
pieces you change the circumstances/reasons & purposes that created the war in th first place.
A bridge too far-IMO.

We have no idea of the actual rules yet so who knows how Italy will be handled my gut feeling it will
be by a set date entry for the  Allies.

@Old:

……but Italy can’t become a CP.

But that is what Italy do, they switch sides all the time. Italy never end a war at the same side it startet, and if they do its because they switched side twice during the war. Italy is the one power you can be sure will backstabb you, man . grin

I like the entry rules that Flashman proposed, now that would make for a fun game, and it would be historicall too. Too bad its too complicated for this game.

The situation for Italy in 1915 was almost identical to that in 1940. Mussolini decided to join in with Hitler before it was too late. For a few casualties he got Nice and Savoy, and a promise from Hitler of Tunisia and maybe Morocco.
Despite the ideological similarities, Hitler and Mussolini had nearly gone to war with each other over Austria, and even as Allies they tried to outdo each other and didn’t keep their partner informed.

In 1915 Germany offered something similar - a slice of France’s African Empire. I think it is highly probable that if Germany had looked like beating France, Italy would have gone in the CPs favour.

Making a CP Italy a possibility gives a sense of urgency, then, to the opening turn or two. If it does happen, then the game could be re-balanced somewhat by, for example, making earlier American entry more likely.
Or, make the Allies pay in cash to get Italy on their side, money which can be spent on units if they don’t succeed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy_in_WWI#From_neutrality_to_the_intervention_in_the_war

Taking a major nation and just “switching sides” when the game was balanced to include Italy as Entente, would ruin the delicate balance.

Just play a game with Germany as part of the entente as see what happens. There is no point to allowing anything more than when Italy can become a full entente participant.

It’s not exactly like Italy was will likely have the power to just burst out into the world and kill everything, if anything they’re more of a minor major power, they’ll probably have super low income, just enough to pump out some infantry each turn (AH should only be slightly better).

Well, obviously, the game would be “balanced” by other things. I’m not suggesting counties simply switching sides within an existing framework.

Historical considerations come first, “balancing” issues last. That is, if you get the history right, it should be possible to get the balance right without destroying the history.

The whole attraction of history is the possibilities of what might have happened, not what did. Italy might have stayed with the Central Powers, it might have stayed neutral. If you get the August 1914 setup right, then a historical play out should be only one of an infinite number of possibilities.

Or is there no point in allowing anything other than whatever produces an Allied Victory on 11/11/18?

@DarthShizNit:

It’s not exactly like Italy was will likely have the power to just burst out into the world and kill everything, if anything they’re more of a minor major power, they’ll probably have super low income, just enough to pump out some infantry each turn (AH should only be slightly better).

Yes, I would put Italy in the 2nd rank of nations with Austria-Hungary.
Russia is something of a hybrid; a first rank power due to size and population, but industrially at the same level as I and A-H.
Nevertheless, these three did have the industrial capability to produce the latest weapons:
Russia and Italy both started the war with bombers, unlike the first rank powers; Austria was a leader in Artillery production.

Turkey has to be in the 3rd rank with the likes of Haiti. No industrial base whatever, totally reliant on imports for modern weapons. It didn’t even raise as many fighting troops as Bulgaria.

So, Italy joining CP shouldn’t be too difficult to balance. It might bring America into the war earlier; Allies get an income boost by not having to bribe Italy; CP has to pay income to bribe successfully; a weak Italy might even prove a back-door for the Allies to attack Austria, whereas a neutral Italy is a barrier protecting the Central Powers (remember the Allies cannot attack neutrals).

Maybe the game should of just started in 1915 when all the countries are at war except the US. Get past all this and just gets to the war instead of dealing with all these countries joining the two sides. I definitely prefer a starting date of 1941 or 42 over the 40. Just get to the main part of the war. The game is long and we don’t need to play out a almost certain French defeat.

Historical considerations come first, “balancing” issues last

Not in a game. Balancing is first always. You want to play a game where the CP always lose?  The design must be a delicate tightrope of making a historical game with some allowances for giving each side winning chances.

Flip flop Italy, red white green Russia, gimped Ottoman, and late bloomer USA just throw both History and Balance out the window IMO>

Yeah this war wasn’t exactly balanced, for example, Germany never stood a chance of taking Paris if the French were even half way competent (and they were spectacular, the 2nd Marne is a textbook victory).