Carriers

[idk_iam_swiss]

Did stacking happen in the reality?

[LuckyDay]

@Brain:

I know if I was busy flying my torpedo bomber and suddenly out of nowhere I was attacked by a fleet of hostile ships, there is nothing I would rather have than my trusty torpedo. This should give me a defensive value of at least 3. :-D

and the fact that you can climb to 5,000 feet and dodge and weave around their bullets…  :roll:  since it’s still a plane it’s a bit harder to hit than stuff on the ground, a 3 I think is reasonable for what it is…

@idk_iam_swiss:

Did stacking happen in the reality?

oh yeah baby!
look at the battle for tarawa:
The American invasion force was the largest yet assembled for a single operation, consisting of 17 aircraft carriers (6 CVs, 5 CVLs, 6 CVEs), 12 battleships, 8 heavy and 4 light cruisers, 66 destroyers, and 36 transports.

or D-Day:
Allied naval and merchant navy personnel in over 5,000 ships were involved.

or Luzon:
The Japanese forces reported more than 70 Allied warships entering the Lingayen Gulf.

[bugoo]

In the Pacific esp there was heavy stacking, not so much in the atlantic as the UK navy had alot of ground to cover, and no true enemy navy to worry about.  They  protected there convoys and strategic locations like the straits.

[maverick_76]

I think with the larger board you will see less instances of stacking. Of course there will be those monumental battles but those should be spread few and far between to make them all the more grand. If every battle was as big as the one LuckyDay mentioned, it wouldn’t be so grand would it?

[Veqryn]

yes but something actually HAPPENED when there were stacks in reality.

in A&A the defensive rolls and capabilities are too high in relation to the offensive power

I would not mind stacks if people hit each others stacks more often, but instead it usually just turns into a game of never attacking each other and piling higher

[bugoo]

I don’t disagree with ya.  I really don’t understand why carriers are so defensive in nature in this game, or that the only truly offensive sea unit is a nitch unit (the sub).  Carriers should be a 1/1 unit, and we need a heavy cruiser unit, or for the BB to change for a ship that is stronger offensively than it is defensively.

[maverick_76]

Honestly I think that naval units should be the same defensively as they are offensively. I think subs and carriers should be 1-1 (offense-defense), destroyers should be 2-2, cruisers should be 3-3 and battleships 4-4, with carriers and battleships able to take two hits before dying. And of course subs should retain their first strike capability and can retreat on offense or defense.

[idk_iam_swiss]

You want your cake AND you want to eat it too?

[Guest]

@LuckyDay:

@Brain:

I know if I was busy flying my torpedo bomber and suddenly out of nowhere I was attacked by a fleet of hostile ships, there is nothing I would rather have than my trusty torpedo. This should give me a defensive value of at least 3. :-D

and the fact that you can climb to 5,000 feet and dodge and weave around their bullets…  :roll:  since it’s still a plane it’s a bit harder to hit than stuff on the ground, a 3 I think is reasonable for what it is…

@idk_iam_swiss:

Did stacking happen in the reality?

oh yeah baby!
look at the battle for tarawa:
The American invasion force was the largest yet assembled for a single operation, consisting of 17 aircraft carriers (6 CVs, 5 CVLs, 6 CVEs), 12 battleships, 8 heavy and 4 light cruisers, 66 destroyers, and 36 transports.

or D-Day:
Allied naval and merchant navy personnel in over 5,000 ships were involved.

or Luzon:
The Japanese forces reported more than 70 Allied warships entering the Lingayen Gulf.

Yeah Lucky Day, You’re right they should have a retreat value of 3, In this game a defense value is used to counterattack and the torpedo bomber isn’t going to do well there.

[maverick_76]

@idk_iam_swiss:

You want your cake AND you want to eat it too?

You know it!

[Guest]

I’m not buying a cake for you.

[miragehunter]

I agree that AC’s should be 1/1 but still take two hits.  If memory serves correctly.  They had only 50 cal. guns as their only means of defense back in WW2.  Now they have all kinds of fun things to use.  That is why i agree with it being 1/1.  That is why they have planes on AC’s.

[Guest]

@miragehunter:

I agree that AC’s should be 1/1 but still take two hits.  If memory serves correctly.  They had only 50 cal. guns as their only means of defense back in WW2.  Now they have all kinds of fun things to use.  That is why i agree with it being 1/1.  That is why they have planes on AC’s.

And that is why they had escorts.

[xzorn]

You have to remember, though, that each carrier piece represents an entire carrier group, with a number of carriers and support vessels such as destroyers. That is why they have some sort of defense, I believe. In truth, I think the A&A50 1-2-2-14 carriers were fine. Coupled with fighters they provided the best range and firepower, but at the cost of being vulnerable on their own. Thus, a balanced fleet built around the carriers was the best arrangement.

[trackmagic]

I think the Japanese thought they destroyed the enterprise 2 or 3 times during the war, but the US kept repairing it. The Yorktown was repaired in less than a day once in Pearl Harbor so it could fight at Midway.

I think that the carriers did have some fighting capability of their own. According to wikipedia the Essex-class carriers armament was:
4 × twin 5 inch (127 mm) 38 caliber guns
4 × single 5 inch (127 mm) 38 caliber guns
8 × quadruple 40 mm 56 caliber guns
46 × single 20 mm 78 caliber guns;

With all that considered I think the new rules are historically accurate if that’s what you like.

[maverick_76]

Well after seeing the new preview for the game I’m pretty happy.

[oztea]

Still no way to mark if they are damaged or not……
and my sub scenerio of doom and destruction is still possible

Carrier w/ 2 planes vs destroyer
planes launch to defend
sub hits w/ first strike
carrier damaged
carrier returns fire, hits
planes may not fire
planes may not land on damaged carrier
planes destroyed

exchange [6 ipc Sub <> 20 ipcs of aircraft] UNLESS you cna choose to not launch planes when defending

[Imperious Leader]

I consider the Carrier hit in the final attacking round. It is the last free hit and only if your are sure you will not be attacked since the planes wont be defending if the carrier is attacked on your opponents turn.

And the carrier is a 16 IPC unit with no attack value. I think it could be worth 14 IPC with these rules.

[maverick_76]

Why would your planes deply? You wouldn’t be able to hit the sub without a destroyer, right?

[Imperious Leader]

If the enemy fleet ( think not subs, but anything else) your defending planes cant be used as defenders, so out of the carrier and 2 planes, you just get one 2 or less for defense, rather than 2 fours and a two.