@rulebook_reviewer https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/31377/axis-victories-what-s-the-magic-trick
It’s already been discussed.
Euro-Axis bomber as can opener for Japan
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It really helps out Germany that Italy can act as a can opener for them. Whether that is in the sea or land to clear single blocking units.
The last game I played, as Japan I placed an airbase in Shensi with the plan of flying my fighters and 4 strategic bombers to Romania (yes that is only five spaces if you use sz100) to begin a bombing campaign against the Russians. I did this because I didn’t have enough Japanese troops in China to clear it out, so, I was never going to have a valid place to launch a sustained bombing campaign against the Soviets from that side of the board.
(keep following….) Now, when I play Japan, it gets me frustrated that the Allies (US mainly) will often step out with an insufficient fleet but use a blocker to protect it form the main Japanese fleet/air force. This got me thinking of how you, as the Axis, would get a Euro-Axis bomber to the Pacific to use it to clear a blocking vessel. Do that, and then Japan may be able to do catastrophic damage to the Allied fleet in the Pacific. If Italy or Germany placed a bomber in Romania, it is 6 spaces to Yunnan (z100 > Caucus > Kazakhstan > Sikang > Szechwan > Yunnan). Or, if they build an airbase in Romania, they could fly all the way to Kwangtung or FIC. With a Japanese airbase in one of those territories, the German/Italian bomber could really project some power to clear sea zones of blockers.
I haven’t ever tried this, but it is something I thought is an interesting possibility.
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I like it, this fits in the GOOD ideas column.
However, it should be noted, that the bomber wouldn’t be “required” until atleast J3. that does mean though, that it should be in Romania by G2… Hmm… Could probably make it there G1 depending on how you arrange things.
I have to say though… the Euro axis has it tough enough without losing another bomber. I’d try this on an opponent who likes to lock in plans, and have strict movements, or who doesn’t see what EVERYTHING on the board is capable of.
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German bomber from FIC attacks ANZAC destroyer and rolls a 5 (miss). ANZAC destroyer defends and rolls a 2 (hit) shooting down the German bomber and maintaining the screen. This could turn everything on it’s head if you depend too much on the bomber, in order to carry out big plans. I like your creative thinking though.
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The bomber provides “threat value” even if it just SITS on the board.
Advertise it to your opponent like you are doing them a favour.
“Man, don’t forget, if you dont add an extra blocker…. I’m going to pop you with this.” or whatever.
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The bomber provides “threat value” even if it just SITS on the board.
Advertise it to your opponent like you are doing them a favour.
“Man, don’t forget, if you dont add an extra blocker…. I’m going to pop you with this.” or whatever.
Glad to see others are attributing to my previous statements about threat… (not saying you have not always agreed, or that maybe it was I who was agreeing with you.)
Yes. There has been occasion when Russia thought they blocked their retreating infantry stack from Japanese Mech/Arm stacks only to have the German bomber pop open the door so they can be wiped out before they make it to Moscow. It was alpha 2, of course and there was a 33% chance the bomber was lost on the mission but I’ll trade 1, 12 IPC bomber for 54 IPC worth of Russian infantry. (Not counting the AA Gun that was lost because in Alpha 2, it didn’t do anything to Mech/Arm attacking.)
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@Young:
German bomber from FIC attacks ANZAC destroyer and rolls a 5 (miss). ANZAC destroyer defends and rolls a 2 (hit) shooting down the German bomber and maintaining the screen. This could turn everything on it’s head if you depend too much on the bomber, in order to carry out big plans. I like your creative thinking though.
It is a double whammy though. India, in your example, has to assume the destroyer is lost and prepare for it. Germany does not have to attack the Destroyer if India is properly prepared. Chicken and the Egg situation really. But you are correct, the odds are:
Attacker: 1 Bom. v. Defender: 1 Des.
Average battle duration: 1.3 rounds of combat
Overall %*: A. survives: 56.9% D. survives: 14.8% No one survives: 28.3%Chance.
So in reality, since all you want is the destroyer dead, you dont care as much about the bomber (you’d like to keep it, of course, but you’re willing to sacrifice it to achieve your mission, else the attack wouldn’t happen) you have a 85.2% chance of success and a 14.8% chance of failure. I’ll take those odds just about every time, unless the risk of high value units for position on the board that isn’t important is the situation. (I wouldn’t attack the destroyer if I didn’t need to clear it for my allied nation to make an attack, but would every time if it opened the door for me.)
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The bomber provides “threat value” even if it just SITS on the board.
Advertise it to your opponent like you are doing them a favour.
“Man, don’t forget, if you dont add an extra blocker…. I’m going to pop you with this.” or whatever.
Yea, that was my thought too. That it the threat that really matters. Your opponent would have to factor that into his calculations. Sure, he can plan on my bomber missing and his destroyer hitting, but that’s only going to happen 10% of the time. If he wants to risk me sinking his fleet or under-defending India because he has a blocking DD out there, be my guest.
Because of the threat value, I would do my level best to get two German bombers out there if I could. Then, if they want to put up a blocking screen, it has to be a minimum of two vessels. Plus, sometimes there is more than one route to get to a place and then the Allies would need 4 or more blockers to try to stop Japan. At that point, it would most likely be prohibitive for the Allies to throw out so many blockers. The bombers don’t necessarily have to be used either. They could just sit in FIC (or where ever) and Japan would be able to send a SS + planes to bleed the Allies for naval vessels.
I really need to work this into a game. Hopefully Axisplaya isn’t reading any of this. :wink:
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This does require the bomber to fly over Soviet territories. So, correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t that mean Germany must be at war with the Soviets? They can not fly over a neutral Soviet Union, correct?
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Hopefully Axisplaya isn’t reading any of this. :wink:
You can count on that ! :lol:
Drats!!! There must be a mole informing you of my plans. Too bad I didn’t think about this before we started out game. I think it would’ve come in handy if I had planned it out from the start. Well, I better patent this move real quick to stop you from using it on me in our next game. :-D
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The bomber provides “threat value” even if it just SITS on the board.
Advertise it to your opponent like you are doing them a favour.
“Man, don’t forget, if you dont add an extra blocker…. I’m going to pop you with this.” or whatever.
Yea, that was my thought too. That it the threat that really matters. Your opponent would have to factor that into his calculations. Sure, he can plan on my bomber missing and his destroyer hitting, but that’s only going to happen 10% of the time. If he wants to risk me sinking his fleet or under-defending India because he has a blocking DD out there, be my guest.
Because of the threat value, I would do my level best to get two German bombers out there if I could. Then, if they want to put up a blocking screen, it has to be a minimum of two vessels. Plus, sometimes there is more than one route to get to a place and then the Allies would need 4 or more blockers to try to stop Japan. At that point, it would most likely be prohibitive for the Allies to throw out so many blockers. The bombers don’t necessarily have to be used either. They could just sit in FIC (or where ever) and Japan would be able to send a SS + planes to bleed the Allies for naval vessels.
I really need to work this into a game. Hopefully Axisplaya isn’t reading any of this. :wink:
Uhm…do you run into a lot of situations where Japan is far enough into Russia that the German bomber could can open for them, but Germany is not at war with Russia??? That means the Japanese have to be in there by round 3 and I don’t see that happening really…(On round 4 someone is going to declare on the other, usually…)
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It’s a very good idea.
You don’t even need the AB in Rom.
You only need to own one of this territories : Sui, She, Hop, Kwe, Yun, Sze, Sik
You are totally due to have one of this territories by J2.
So G2 or I2 you land an Axis bmb in Rom or Bul or Gre, and by G3/I3, it’s safely landed on Japanese Soil.
I will sure give it a try.
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It’s a very good idea.
You don’t even need the AB in Rom.
You only need to own one of this territories : Sui, She, Hop, Kwe, Yun, Sze, Sik
You are totally due to have one of this territories by J2.
So G2 or I2 you land an Axis bmb in Rom or Bul or Gre, and by G3/I3, it’s safely landed on Japanese Soil.
I will sure give it a try.
Well, since it is my idea it would only be fair that someone else uses it against me first! You would be the type of mean, dastardly, underhanded, no shower taking, tobacco chewing, missing teeth character to try that wouldn’t you Axisplaya? :evil: :evil: :evil:
As far as not needing an airbase, you are right, they don’t have to have one to get the bomber out there. I’m just wondering if Romania had one, would it allow Japan to easily take India a round earlier than normal by clearing out a blocking ship? The AB would allow them to land directly into Kwangtung or FIC. I haven’t done any thinking about how this may help Japan in that regard. There may be an opening set of moves that crushes India a round faster if the Euro-Axis bombers are involved.
Jen, maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but, I don’t see how Germany could do effective can opening against Russia for Japan. Russia goes immediately after Germany and directly before Japan. If Germany kills a blocking Russian unit, the Soviets can still move one back to block Japan (range permitting). What I am talking about is getting a pair of German (most likely) or Italian bombers (less likely) out to FIC, Kwangtung, or where ever (with a Japanese air base preferably) so that the Allies have a difficult time doing effective blocking. If they really want to block Japanese naval movement (for example so that Japan can’t go from Malaya to India for an amphibious assault), they would probably have to put three units each in sz38 and sz41 to feel safe. Would that be effective for the Allies to do that? How many times does the US step out with an underpowered fleet a round early but uses another Allied destroyer as a blocker to protect it? That would be harder. I am talking about doing this with the mindset that the Axis victory would come on the Pacific board.
Anyways, this idea sounds interesting to me. Like everything, it is situational. Maybe the Allies never use blockers for a game and the Euro-Axis bombers end up doing not much. However, I can’t really recall a game that I’ve seen where the Allies DO NOT use blockers in the Pacific. At the very least it will be something for the Allies to consider that I am not aware of them needing to consider in the past: an Axis can opener move in the Pacific.
Now, what do we name this operation??? Come on people, we need a good one for this. I was thinking along the lines of “Operation Ally-Lax: Guaranteed to flush out any blockage in the system caused by the Allies!” :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Well, since it is my idea it would only be fair that someone else uses it against me first! You would be the type of mean, dastardly, underhanded, no shower taking, tobacco chewing, missing teeth character to try that wouldn’t you
Axisplaya?Dunno about him, but I’m game.
The problem is, how often would the situation present itself? And yes, I suppose Japan opening for Germany would be better possible than Germany doing it for Japan…seems even less plausible to me. What would Germany gain from the opening that, for instance, they couldnt get from an Italian opening?
I like using the Bombers to soften Russia instead.
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Thank you for the offer of a game Jen. But I will have to decline. I’ve been razzing Axisplaya because we currently have a game going on. In the next one he will be the Axis and I bet I’ll be looking straight into the teeth of my own idea before I even get to try it out for myself. Just a little inside baseball going on between the two of us.
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Hehe. Actually, i like that idea so much, that i think i’m gonna try it right now in my game with Questioneer. The German bmb will land Rom by G3 and will be in China on G4.
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now if ONLY bombers could NCM an infantry unit to a friendly territory…. THAT would be fun.
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now if ONLY bombers could NCM an infantry unit to a friendly territory…. THAT would be fun.
I dont see why paratroopers can’t reinforce places as well as attack them. “Oops, we TOTALLY screwed up the drop zone! Oh well, have some Wine and Cheese in Paris!”
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Sounds like a good idea until the bomber missed and the Destroyer hit. I bet you could get lucky a few times and make your opponent worry and sweat and start sending multiple blockers out
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@suprise:
Sounds like a good idea until the bomber missed and the Destroyer hit. I bet you could get lucky a few times and make your opponent worry and sweat and start sending multiple blockers out
You only need to be lucky 1 time ! Blockers are placed for good reasons. If you kill an important one and Japan gets to blow the allies fleet while keeping some planes and his capital ships alive, then this single bomber might decide the outcome of the war…
If you never use it but it makes the allies spend 2dd instead of one each time they want to block you it’s still very much worth it.
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