Allies lose every game.

[Lucifer]

It seems like the game designers thought that if every axis attack goes as planned then they would win…and succed to conquer the world……which might have happened in the real WW2.

But for the game balance using NOs, just give the allies 2 units and place them in Egy and Karelia, from rnd2 the allies need to strike back, attack and repell, and keep the production advantage. If axis don’t get superior economy from rnd2 or rnd3, the allies will win, just like a typical Revised game w/o bids.

[dondoolee]

@Subotai:

It seems like the game designers thought that if every axis attack goes as planned then they would win…and succed to conquer the world……which might have happened in the real WW2.

But for the game balance using NOs, just give the allies 2 units and place them in Egy and Karelia, from rnd2 the allies need to strike back, attack and repell, and keep the production advantage. If axis don’t get superior economy from rnd2 or rnd3, the allies will win, just like a typical Revised game w/o bids.

That is certainly the most irksome thing to me about this game.  The amount of high probablity attacks the Axis can make and win on T1.  If most succede the Allies are doomed.  This probably happens to the allies in my game 1/3 - 1/4 of the games.  Makeing that many games a virtual moot point after J1.  I wish there was a way to design an AA without being so T1 heavy (at least for opening moves, maybe not purchas), but I fear that may be an impossabilty due to the mechanics of the game.

[dondoolee]

Hell, I want to say maybe 1 out of 15 games it is over after G1.  I have seen the entire relevant Brit navy destroyed, Egy Taken, Ukraine, E Pol, Belussia, AND even Kar obliterated before Russia moves.  This is virtually impossible to recover from.

The real gambles for the axis seem to revolve around Egy mostly, along with balancing British fleet vs hitting Karalea or not.  I think that is THE KEY feature of the entire game right there.

[tarkonis]

G1

German Buys - 5 x tank
            2 x inf

4 inf: Poland -> Baltic States
1 art: Poland -> Baltic states
1 tank: Poland -> Baltic states
1 inf: Germany -> via trn sea zone 5 -> Baltic States
1 art: Germany -> via trn sea zone 5 -> Baltic States
(crusier sz 6 gets shore shot)

1 x tank: Poland -> East Poland
2 x Tank: Czech -> East Poland
1 x tank: Bul/Rom -> East Poland
1 x inf: Bul/Rom -> East Poland

1 x tank: Bul/Rom -> Ukraine
2 x inf: Bul/Rom -> Ukraine
1 x art: Bul/Rom -> Ukraine

1 x fighter: Poland -> SZ6
1 x sub: SZ 5 -> SZ6

1 x FIghter: Norway -> SZ2
1 x Sub: SZ7 -> SZ2
1 x Bomber: Germany -> SZ2

1 x Fighter: NW Europe -> SZ12
1 x sub: SZ7 -> SZ12
1 x Fighter: Germany -> SZ12

Link to German setup turn 1

http://java.cms.livjm.ac.uk/homepage/staff/taedfolk/Axis%20and%20Allies/German%20Turn%201%20setup.jpg

Germans win all combats and take light casualties.  Worst loss is 1 x

fighter in SZ 12.

Results

http://java.cms.livjm.ac.uk/homepage/staff/taedfolk/Axis%20and%20Allies/Germans%20turn%201%20after%20combat.jpg

After place units

http://java.cms.livjm.ac.uk/homepage/staff/taedfolk/Axis%20and%20Allies/Germans%20Turn%201%20after%20place.jpg

R1

Russian Buys = 2 x inf
      1 X art
      2 x tanks
      1 x fighter

No Combat moves

Non combat illustrated below.

leave 7 inf in bur
move 3 inf towards rus
move russian tank to kar ssr
stack 5 inf 1 art on archangel
stack 6 inf in cauc

Unit placements -

1 x tank 1 x fighter in kar ssr
2 x inf 1 x art 1 x tank in cauc

End of Russia Turn 1 map

http://java.cms.livjm.ac.uk/homepage/staff/taedfolk/Axis%20and%20Allies/End%20of%20Russia%20turn%201.jpg

note: What have I done wrong here?  how can I make a better T1 buy and setup

to stop the germans taking kar or get in a position to trade back and still

be strong in the south.

J1

Japanese buys-

2 x trn
1 x inf

Combat moves

2 x ftr: SZ 57 -> SZ 53
1 x dstr: SZ 51 -> SZ 53
2 x ftr: SZ 57 -> sz 56

3 x inf: MAN -> sui
2 x inf: Kia -> Fuki
2 x inf: FIC -> Yun
1 x inf: FIC -> Fuki
1 x ftr: MAN -> Yun
1 x ftr: FOR -> Yun
1 x ftr: Jap -> Fuki

1 x inf: Car islds - via trn (SZ 51) > Phil isld
2 x inf: Car islds - via trn (SZ 51) > Borneo (Borneo Taken)
1 BS: SZ 61 -> SZ 50
1 x inf 1 x tank - via trn (japan SZ 62) > Phil isld

1 X Carrier w/ 2 x ftr: SZ 61 -> SZ37
1 x art 2 x inf -via trn x 2> SZ61 -> SZ37
1 x cruiser: SZ61 -> SZ37
2 x ftr: SZ37 -> SZ 35
3 x inf: SZ37 -> Burma
1 x art: SZ37 -> Burma

japan Turn 1 combat setup west map

http://java.cms.livjm.ac.uk/homepage/staff/taedfolk/Axis%20and%20Allies/Japan%20turn%201%20west.jpg

japan Turn 1 combat setup east map

http://java.cms.livjm.ac.uk/homepage/staff/taedfolk/Axis%20and%20Allies/japan%20turn%201%20east.jpg

Combat

Sui taken
Burma Taken
SZ 50 win
Phil islds taken
SZ 53 win - ftr/dstr lost
Yunnan Taken
Fukien Taken
SZ 56 win - ftr lost
Hupeh stalemate - chinese retain territory
SZ 35 win - ftr lost

West map

http://java.cms.livjm.ac.uk/homepage/staff/taedfolk/Axis%20and%20Allies/japan%20end%20of%20turn%201%20west.jpg

East Map

http://java.cms.livjm.ac.uk/homepage/staff/taedfolk/Axis%20and%20Allies/Japan%20end%20of%20turn%201%20east.jpg

---

So this is my turn 1 up to now.  How would you approach this game?  I have
left Gibraltar so as to let a few more strategies in the med be viable.  But
ordinarily I would take gibraltar with the germans to deny uk a NO and to
stop a build up of air units there on UK 1.

The allies need you!!!

[Corbeau Blanc]

That G1 and J1 turn is far from optimal, India is not really threatened and Egypt did not fallen yet, the bomber being used in the attack against UK BB. But since Egypt forces are available, I would elect to abandon India and deadzone it.

The German east front set up has a weak point in ukraine while being based on the expectation Russia will defend both IC. However, Germany can’t really hold on any of thoses IC.

Allies in this case:

RUSSIA buys are wrong for a start. You don’t answer a 5 tanks buy G1 with a russian fighter and some odd units. Buy 6 tanks

Defending Karelia here is also an error as UK has been opened options, you don’t want to tie their airforce in karelia. So you deadzone it. Take out Finland with all Karelia forces, bringing the AA gun with you. Moscow 3 infantry and artillery join the 2 infantry in archangel.

Ukraine is weak, 3 german units. There is only 1 infantry in range and some tanks to retake it next turn.  Smash it with everyting in range, your moscow tank and 5 infantry.

Place 3 tanks in caucasus, bring in the 2 khazak infantry.  Place 3 tanks in moscow and bring in novo 2 infantry. Close the gap in east ukraine with 1 of the 2 belorrusians. Leave 1 infantry in Karelia.

Result here is Karelia is a death trap, 3 tanks from moscow reaching it with Finland forces and Archangel forces. You opened a new front in Ukraine while ensuring the ennemy must commit tanks to retake it AND having ALL of your 6 russian tanks within striking range to counter attack Ukraine, Germany NO .

This is one of the case where you risk/sacrifice the lone remaining transport from UK and take France (keeping the destroyer safe ). Plan your buys accordingly but France gives you 11ipc so you just do it, sending your whole airforce to back it up. It will Kill some german units, give you 11 ipc and force germany/Italy to retake it, less units to Russia.

The rest is pretty much obvious,
UK main job will be to regroup all it’s forces between Egypt and India and hold Transjordan as long they can to deny Italians NO while allies sink asap their fleet. Then deazone India from Persia. This removes all pressure on caucasus and let Russia concentrate on breaking Germany.

US strikes at Moroco asap, perhaps even turn 1, also risking/trading their transport for that german fighter while setting up to sink Italians.

That’s about it.

[tarkonis]

@Corbeau:

That G1 and J1 turn is far from optimal, India is not really threatened and Egypt did not fallen yet, the bomber being used in the attack against UK BB. But since Egypt forces are available, I would elect to abandon India and deadzone it.

The German east front set up has a weak point in ukraine while being based on the expectation Russia will defend both IC. However, Germany can’t really hold on any of thoses IC.

Allies in this case:

RUSSIA buys are wrong for a start. You don’t answer a 5 tanks buy G1 with a russian fighter and some odd units. Buy 6 tanks

Defending Karelia here is also an error as UK has been opened options, you don’t want to tie their airforce in karelia. So you deadzone it. Take out Finland with all Karelia forces, bringing the AA gun with you. Moscow 3 infantry and artillery join the 2 infantry in archangel.

Ukraine is weak, 3 german units. There is only 1 infantry in range and some tanks to retake it next turn.  Smash it with everyting in range, your moscow tank and 5 infantry.

Place 3 tanks in caucasus, bring in the 2 khazak infantry.  Place 3 tanks in moscow and bring in novo 2 infantry. Close the gap in east ukraine with 1 of the 2 belorrusians. Leave 1 infantry in Karelia.

Result here is Karelia is a death trap, 3 tanks from moscow reaching it with Finland forces and Archangel forces. You opened a new front in Ukraine while ensuring the ennemy must commit tanks to retake it AND having ALL of your 6 russian tanks within striking range to counter attack Ukraine, Germany NO .

This is one of the case where you risk/sacrifice the lone remaining transport from UK and take France (keeping the destroyer safe ). Plan your buys accordingly but France gives you 11ipc so you just do it, sending your whole airforce to back it up. It will Kill some german units, give you 11 ipc and force germany/Italy to retake it, less units to Russia.

The rest is pretty much obvious,
UK main job will be to regroup all it’s forces between Egypt and India and hold Transjordan as long they can to deny Italians NO while allies sink asap their fleet. Then deazone India from Persia. This removes all pressure on caucasus and let Russia concentrate on breaking Germany.

US strikes at Moroco asap, perhaps even turn 1, also risking/trading their transport for that german fighter while setting up to sink Italians.

That’s about it.

Hi mate,

Thanks very much for your response… and while I appreciate that you may be more versed in the inner workings and tactics of the game than I am… I don’t really understand some of your remarks.

Why isn’t India threatened?  The Japanese will take India on the next round and how am I able to take it without abandoning Egypt.  There is a carrier and a cruiser of the coast with 2 ftrs if I take it back the Japanese will re trade it with me.  What does “Deadzoning” it mean?

The Germans will Steamroll into karellia on the next turn using the bomber and fighter to assist.  Are you saying I go into Finland and let them take it?  Then my inf will be hitting on 1’s and they will have 2’s for theirs when I re take it.

I usually do buy 6 tanks but I’ve always thought it foolhardy for some reason… Thanks for setting the record straight.

I don’t see what the overall allied strategy is though… What is the aim of my game?  I don’t know how to get enough us forces into the fight to make a difference before Russia falls.  Where should UK invade?  France? Finland? Norway? Should US buy just airforce in the first few rounds to support UK?

[Lucifer]

For any allied strategy in 41 +NOs, I think of it as “harm reduction”, just as the context in the social politics. In AA50 the goal is to reduce the axis economic edge, which will happen in turn2 or turn3, or maybe never…

Japan is very hard to stop, but Japan can be slowed down, and Germany can also be stopped, and reduced, by KGF. The most effective allied strat in AA50 is probably to spend as little as possible to keep (some) pacific allied NOs, and use everything else in Europe, after Africa is secured. Some issues are also about general playing skills, not only overall general strats like kjf/kgf etc. To keep Russia alive one or two more rnds, to slow Japan one more rnd, etc., this is important for which side will win in the end.

[BigRedOne]

I might be able to help with some basic concepts here.  I think the best way to go for the Western Allies (US and UK), is to create a two-pronged threat into Europe, in much the same way they did historically.  The British should build a fleet (based around BBs for those invasion supporting fires), and park it in Z6.  From there they can land in Nwe, Nwy and Fin (all typically weakly- or un-defended) while still threatening Fra and Ger (the 1st key).  The US simultaneously builds a fleet (based around carriers and fighters cause that’s what they start with lots of).  This fleet bridges from Eus to Alg, and streams troops into North Africa starting US2, while simultaneously threatening Fra and Ita (the 2nd key).  The bridge can eventually be moved from Eca to Alg, which improves the US ability to strike Fra.  The beauty of this two pronged approach is that the Italians are then forced to defend Italy and battle for North Africa (if they can) and thus are unable to reinforce Fra.  This then forces the Germans to reinforce Fra, which draws vital ground troops (infantry–and they can only make 10/turn if they don’t build/capture any ICs) away from Russia.  Simultaneously, the US and UK need to begin a combined SBR campaign against Italy, which should leave them unable to produce more than a few inf/tanks a turn.  Coupled with this, the Russians need to build as many infantry as possible while conserving what they start with, and back them up with a few tanks or fighters for counterattacks and defense.  With German forces tied to Fra and Ger, the Russian infantry stacks should be able to go toe to toe and grind down the German attackers.

My first couple turns look like this (in brief outline form):

R1 (5xInf, 3xTank)
Counterattack one of the NO territories if feasible to deny the Ger NO
Build a huge stack in Bel with all available forces (abandon Kar as it’s essentially lost anyways)
Screen the rest of the front with 1-2 inf per territory
Inf from Siberia retreat towards Mos, inf in Kaz and Nov move into China (slowing the Japs down will help hold Mos later)

UK1 (BB, CV, Tran)
Destroy Ger fleet
SBR Italy if possible (ie bmb isn’t needed for fleet destruction)
Any surviving Egy forces (tank and/or ftr link-up with 2xInf from Trj and the Ind defenders in Per)–this creates a big stack that can hold out for a bit rather than being defeated piecemeal

US1 (CV, bmb, tran, inf, arty)
2xBmb to Gbr
Surviving carrier/dd to Panama Canal with Haw ftr
Place fleet in Z10 along with Wus and Eus fighters

R2
depends on Ger/Ita turns

UK2 (depends on available money, but should be a fleet unit or two, a loaded tran or two, and an extra bmb)
SBR Ita
Land in Alg with fleet (no more Ita NO)

US2 (more fleet units, loaded trans and a bmb)
Land in Alg with fleet
SBR Ita
Move Pac carrier/DD to Z10

On round 3, the UK can move their fleet away from Z12 to begin my previously described threatening action (the BB will probably have to stay to provide backbone for the fledgling US fleet), but all the elements are now in place.  When the 2nd US carrier arrives on US3, that should free the UK BB to go back to its primary task in Northern Europe.  With all of Europe’s coastline threatened, you should be able to make a convincing landing somewhere (ideally you can get Fra, and then 1-2 punch it with the Allies) around Turn 5 or 6 (and Russia SHOULD be able to hold out that long!).  Italy will probably fall the turn after Fra, as it should be at 10-12 IPCs after Round 2 while being hit with 3-4 bmb minimum.  Once Italy falls, it almost doesn’t matter if Germany takes Russia, as they will be too far away to stop the UK/US bum rush into Berlin (8 production spots in Gbr, plus 6 in Ita, plus what the US can ship over in the transport chain) that will happen approximately 2 turns after that.

I have used this formula numerous times now and it is very effective, and the Japs can’t stop it (although I admit I’ve never faced the Polar Express, but it just doesn’t sound that effective on paper).  By the time Japan is knocking on Moscow’s gate, the Germans will have more pressing problems to worry about in their rear, and the Commies should be able to turtle up against the Japs and wait for the cavalry (and/or the Ita/Ger demise)…

Hope this helps.

[tarkonis]

@BigRedOne:

I might be able to help with some basic concepts here.  I think the best way to go for the Western Allies (US and UK), is to create a two-pronged threat into Europe, in much the same way they did historically.  The British should build a fleet (based around BBs for those invasion supporting fires), and park it in Z6.  From there they can land in Nwe, Nwy and Fin (all typically weakly- or un-defended) while still threatening Fra and Ger (the 1st key).  The US simultaneously builds a fleet (based around carriers and fighters cause that’s what they start with lots of).  This fleet bridges from Eus to Alg, and streams troops into North Africa starting US2, while simultaneously threatening Fra and Ita (the 2nd key).  The bridge can eventually be moved from Eca to Alg, which improves the US ability to strike Fra.  The beauty of this two pronged approach is that the Italians are then forced to defend Italy and battle for North Africa (if they can) and thus are unable to reinforce Fra.  This then forces the Germans to reinforce Fra, which draws vital ground troops (infantry–and they can only make 10/turn if they don’t build/capture any ICs) away from Russia.  Simultaneously, the US and UK need to begin a combined SBR campaign against Italy, which should leave them unable to produce more than a few inf/tanks a turn.  Coupled with this, the Russians need to build as many infantry as possible while conserving what they start with, and back them up with a few tanks or fighters for counterattacks and defense.  With German forces tied to Fra and Ger, the Russian infantry stacks should be able to go toe to toe and grind down the German attackers.

My first couple turns look like this (in brief outline form):

R1 (5xInf, 3xTank)
Counterattack one of the NO territories if feasible to deny the Ger NO
Build a huge stack in Bel with all available forces (abandon Kar as it’s essentially lost anyways)
Screen the rest of the front with 1-2 inf per territory
Inf from Siberia retreat towards Mos, inf in Kaz and Nov move into China (slowing the Japs down will help hold Mos later)

UK1 (BB, CV, Tran)
Destroy Ger fleet
SBR Italy if possible (ie bmb isn’t needed for fleet destruction)
Any surviving Egy forces (tank and/or ftr link-up with 2xInf from Trj and the Ind defenders in Per)–this creates a big stack that can hold out for a bit rather than being defeated piecemeal

US1 (CV, bmb, tran, inf, arty)
2xBmb to Gbr
Surviving carrier/dd to Panama Canal with Haw ftr
Place fleet in Z10 along with Wus and Eus fighters

R2
depends on Ger/Ita turns

UK2 (depends on available money, but should be a fleet unit or two, a loaded tran or two, and an extra bmb)
SBR Ita
Land in Alg with fleet (no more Ita NO)

US2 (more fleet units, loaded trans and a bmb)
Land in Alg with fleet
SBR Ita
Move Pac carrier/DD to Z10

On round 3, the UK can move their fleet away from Z12 to begin my previously described threatening action (the BB will probably have to stay to provide backbone for the fledgling US fleet), but all the elements are now in place.  When the 2nd US carrier arrives on US3, that should free the UK BB to go back to its primary task in Northern Europe.  With all of Europe’s coastline threatened, you should be able to make a convincing landing somewhere (ideally you can get Fra, and then 1-2 punch it with the Allies) around Turn 5 or 6 (and Russia SHOULD be able to hold out that long!).  Italy will probably fall the turn after Fra, as it should be at 10-12 IPCs after Round 2 while being hit with 3-4 bmb minimum.  Once Italy falls, it almost doesn’t matter if Germany takes Russia, as they will be too far away to stop the UK/US bum rush into Berlin (8 production spots in Gbr, plus 6 in Ita, plus what the US can ship over in the transport chain) that will happen approximately 2 turns after that.

I have used this formula numerous times now and it is very effective, and the Japs can’t stop it (although I admit I’ve never faced the Polar Express, but it just doesn’t sound that effective on paper).  By the time Japan is knocking on Moscow’s gate, the Germans will have more pressing problems to worry about in their rear, and the Commies should be able to turtle up against the Japs and wait for the cavalry (and/or the Ita/Ger demise)…

Hope this helps.

Thanks very much for taking the time to write such a comprehensive reply… but…

This all sounds great in theory…  But you are left wide open to the polar express… Once the Japanese start coming (which could be as early as turn 2/3) your forced to stop your shuck into Europe with the US.  Then your whole battleplan breaks down.  The fact that you haven’t faced the polar express when going KGF tells me that you are yet to play a skilled axis player.  A skilled axis player would also take gibraltar G1, and thus you wouldnt be able to land your bombers there to take out the italian fleet.  I dont know what you are landing in angeria with in us 2… but by us 2 you have a paltry force at best…

Don’t get me wrong I appreciate your replays but I can’t see this working.

I’m really really stumped on how to beat the axis.  :( :(

[Omega]

to prevent Polar Express, you just need to have minimal navy forces in the Pacific. (Your fleet must still be equal or more powerful than the Japanese one)

You can let the Japanese land, that is not a problem. There will be 1 infantry in western canada that will slow their advance by 1 turn. By the time the polar troops arrive to USA, you will have enough troops to counter them
I said that you can let the Japanese land. But you must have sufficient navy power to destroy their entire fleet. (To cut off all reinforcements).

Usually, you just need 1-2 Destroyer, 1 aircraft carrier with 2 fighter and ALOT of submarines.
My typical USA 1 is to buy 1 CV (for the Atlantic) and 2 submarine (for the PAcific). The rest is up to me (Do i sacrifice a transports to take morocco?). If Japan succeeded in sinking the pacific DD and Transport, i usually add one DD to my Pacific fleet. Don’t rush. Make sure your transports can survive to the Nazi’s airforces. If Germany succeeds in sinking your fleet, that is a huge tempo gain for the Axis.

You let the japanese take Alaska. If he sent 0 naval ships to defend his transports, you wipe out his transports and slowly, you build ground forces to retake Alaska.
If he sent a huge naval forces to take Alaska, then its your chance to sink everything with your Submarines. If you do destroy the entire Japanese navy, then the Pacific is almost yours (Depending on the losses).
Remember that Submarine are best on the attack. Don’t let the Japanese attack you. You have to attack them first!

Polar Express isnt always a big threat. You can see it coming. The first few times, you will surprise your opponent (because no one really know that transports from Japan can hit USA). The Axis needs to use it properly to deal great damage. The USA must never get scared. Just make sure your naval forces are enough to destroy the Japanese forces. Ground troops can be taken care after.

With UK/USA, you have to play slowly, hitting where the enemy is weak. You have to build a navy to protect your transports. Spending 1-2 turn to prepare an invasion is good enough.

Remember, having 2-3 transports loaded that can hit both France and Germany will remove a lot of pressure on Russia. Once Allies start exchanging France with the Axis, I think the game is almost finished.

About India : You just have to slow down the Japanese. The same thing applies with Chinese. I do not understand people using the fact that China is week as an argument. China IS week. But China can slow down Japanese. Of course, China can be completly destroyed in a few turns.
The 7 infantry stack is there also to slow Japan. Right now, i’m still not sure if it’s best to leave them to die there, or to slowly retreat them (leaving 1 everywhere).

Allies do require more communications between everyone.
Axis players can pretty much do whatever they want and still win

The game is certainly not perfect. But I think it is very possible to win with both sides. Yes, I hate how there are so many first turns move that can give a huge advantage to the Axis, but this is how the game is designed.
Personally, I don’t understand why UK has only 1 Industrial Complex. Russia has 3. Why can’t UK have one in India? or Australia, Africa, Canada….

[BigRedOne]

I have more games under my belt in FtF than the few I have here on the forums, against several “skilled” Axis players, and I still haven’t seen an effective Polar Express.  I will wait to fear it until I have seen it successfully used against me .  I also don’t believe that the Japanese can mount the Polar Express while simultaneously thrusting into India/Africa, conquering China, taking Australia and threatening Russia.  The Japanese may get strong quickly, but they can’t do it all, and I have to believe that a Polar Express that would seriously threaten the US will divert major resources from Japan’s other offensives, allowing the Russians, Chinese and British time to mobilize against and defeat them.

As for the “paltry” US force in Z12 on US2, the UK fleet is already there with DD, BB, CV, 2xFtr, (Rus) Sub.  Add the US DD, CV and 2xFtr, and it is invulnerable to the Italian fleet.  When UK3 comes around, leave the BB behind to support the Americans, and use the rest of your fleet to threaten the Germans in the north (take Nwy maybe).  Although this can be countered somewhat by a strong Luftwaffe presence in Fra, then the German attacks against Russia will certainly be weaker (you can’t attack more than the border TTs with Fra-based fighters, so they either have to defend the west or attack in the east, but not both).  I am also aware of the Axis attack against Gib, but I don’t go after the Italian fleet on UK1 unless my fleet is still alive in Z12 (which doesn’t happen against a “skilled” Axis player).  The Italian fleet is ripe for the picking at any time; there’s no need to rush it until you are assured of an easy victory.  And if the Italians bolster their fleet, than they’re not defending Fra, which means you either have an easy shot there, or the Germans are maintaining a serious presence there (and thusly not in the East).  Either way the Allied player comes out ahead.

Finally, if you don’t believe that this will work, I welcome you to play a game against me as the Axis, and I will use the strategy I describe here.  I think that practical examples go much further in proving/disproving a strategy than any amount of empty discussing/arguing/theorizing in the forums.

[tarkonis]

@BigRedOne:

I have more games under my belt in FtF than the few I have here on the forums, against several “skilled” Axis players, and I still haven’t seen an effective Polar Express.  I will wait to fear it until I have seen it successfully used against me .  I also don’t believe that the Japanese can mount the Polar Express while simultaneously thrusting into India/Africa, conquering China, taking Australia and threatening Russia.  The Japanese may get strong quickly, but they can’t do it all, and I have to believe that a Polar Express that would seriously threaten the US will divert major resources from Japan’s other offensives, allowing the Russians, Chinese and British time to mobilize against and defeat them.

As for the “paltry” US force in Z12 on US2, the UK fleet is already there with DD, BB, CV, 2xFtr, (Rus) Sub.  Add the US DD, CV and 2xFtr, and it is invulnerable to the Italian fleet.  When UK3 comes around, leave the BB behind to support the Americans, and use the rest of your fleet to threaten the Germans in the north (take Nwy maybe).  Although this can be countered somewhat by a strong Luftwaffe presence in Fra, then the German attacks against Russia will certainly be weaker (you can’t attack more than the border TTs with Fra-based fighters, so they either have to defend the west or attack in the east, but not both).  I am also aware of the Axis attack against Gib, but I don’t go after the Italian fleet on UK1 unless my fleet is still alive in Z12 (which doesn’t happen against a “skilled” Axis player).  The Italian fleet is ripe for the picking at any time; there’s no need to rush it until you are assured of an easy victory.  And if the Italians bolster their fleet, than they’re not defending Fra, which means you either have an easy shot there, or the Germans are maintaining a serious presence there (and thusly not in the East).  Either way the Allied player comes out ahead.

Finally, if you don’t believe that this will work, I welcome you to play a game against me as the Axis, and I will use the strategy I describe here.  I think that practical examples go much further in proving/disproving a strategy than any amount of empty discussing/arguing/theorizing in the forums.

Hi again…

Thanks again for your reply I really appreciate it.

I would really like to play a game against you and see this in practice.  I hope you don’t take offence by my earlier comments it’s just that I am not very skilled myself as playing allies or axis and all I have seen in the game so far is axis wins.

My problem with the us is that they cannot ship units to france in 1 turn… their bridge takes 2 turns to move units from the US to france  so the pressure is not kept up really every turn by the us.  UK can only produce 8 units per turn , so thats 4 tanks and 4 inf shuck per turn into france which is easily repelled by the germans with their 9/10 tanks every turn.

As I said… please I hope you don’t take offence and i’m not bashing your strategy… this is just my experience.  I’m going to play a game today and will try to use the strategies you outline here.

Thanks again

[Omega]

You dont need to invade EVERY turn with UK and US.

IF you take your time with the UK, and have every turn 1-2 additional transports with full capacity, you are threatening Germany,

Lets say I have 4 Transports loaded. I decide to not drop them. I build 1 transport, 1 infantry 1 artillery = 14IPC

Next turn, I have 5 transports and 10 units that can be dropped ANYWHERE on Europe (That’s with Baltic Sea cleared)

What will a competent Germany do? Protect his capital, and maybe France (If he built an IC already) If he continues to send his 10 units production against Russia, he might as well lose Germany on UK’s Turn. (10 units UK with his little air force and shore bombardment CAN win against 10 newly produced Nazi units)

You do the same thing with the USA. They have to do it slowly. The most important is that you make sure that your fleet will survive to any Aircraft/navy units. Once that is done, then all is left is to produce units and proceed with invading Morocco. When Morocco is invaded, build more transports to make a chain :
USA –> Moroco
Moroco --> USA
Moroco --> France or Italy

Once both UK and USA can threaten Europe, the game is pretty much over. All you have to do is to slow down the Japanese on the East.

Of course, this doesn’t always work. Dices can dictate the game.
Say Germany launch a desperate attack on Russia and wins it with almost no loss. This can change the game to a point where UK and USA must act NOW.
This can be hardly achieved too if Germany builds alot of air (he can easily afford 1-2 plane per turn) or if he buys navy. Because a Germany with 40+ IPCS can easily divert some of his money to builds units to destroy the British naval forces. If British naval forces are destroyed in the mid-late game, I think Allies just lost the game.

Robert

[BigRedOne]

I wouldn’t have taken the time to elaborate on my points if I had been offended by your remarks; I just wanted to point out that it is quite possible to win as the Allies.  The key is to go KIF by beating them down thru SBR and eventually taking Rome by sea thru the Med, or overland from Fra.  Once they are eliminated, the Axis player(s) loses their ability to counter the UK-US 1-2 punch, which means that Germany will fall sooner or later.  Check out my league game against Panther to see this strategy in action (it doesn’t play out exactly as I wrote, but of course the actual tactical actions are determined in a large part by my opponents’ actions) before you play your game.  I will of course play a game against you if you still want to see the practical application of what I’m talking about.

Also, three other points of clarification:
The US can bridge units to Fra in one turn by moving them overland into Wca, and then staging out of Z9.  This sea zone is critical to the US troop shuck, as it can hit both Fra and Alg in one round (although watch for German bombers out of Fra!).  It just makes sense to start hitting Alg on round two as it is the first place the US can make its presense felt in an effective way (and begins the all-important process of eliminating Italy’s NOs and IPCs), but switch to the Eca/Z9 staging area as soon as feasible.

Second, you can’t compare the UK production of 8 units to Germany’s 10–because Germany has to split its attention to the East.  You have 20 Allied production spots (8 UK + 12 Russian) vs. 16 Axis (10 German + 6 Italian); in actual practice, the amount of locations that can be fully utilized is more like 16 Allied (8 UK + 8 Russian) vs. 13 Axis (10 German + 3 Italian), even if the Germans capture Kar, it only gives them 15 spots (and its no loss to the Allies because after the first turn or so, the Russians can no longer fill their 12 spots anyway).  The US production shipping across the Atlantic at a good 4-6+ units a turn plus aircraft is just icing on the cake!

Finally, I forgot to mention the UK DD/tran with an inf and arty out of Aus.  This force can reach Z12 by turn 3, and can reinforce Alg or recapture Gib as required.

Good luck in your future endeavors as the Allies!

[Funcioneta]

@BigRedOne:

The Japanese may get strong quickly, but they can’t do it all, and I have to believe that a Polar Express that would seriously threaten the US will divert major resources from Japan’s other offensives, allowing the Russians, Chinese and British time to mobilize against and defeat them.

The question is: what chineses? China is killed J1. What british? They cannot hold a factory in India (anyway, India IC is against KGF spirit), and starting units will not resist forever. The soviets are the only ones that can really send something, but they are too busy with western axis usually, and they will be very busy if USA is sticked to defend american mainland.

I admit that soviets could at least annoy a bit, but puppet China gives Japan a nice buffer against that tactic (that was indeed a option in Revised). Puppet China is a great addition to Axis team, not as good as Italy, but almost. You see the irony: A&A was 3 allies vs 2 axis, now is 3 allies vs 4 axis  :wink:

[BigRedOne]

A few Russian infantry diverted into China can help stall the Japanese long enough to accumulate more “free” Chinese infantry, especially if Japan is busy trying to convoy units into Alaska.  And, as I pointed out before, if the UK tank and/or fighter survive in Egy, they can link up with the Trj and Ind forces in Per for a pretty strong 5xInf, Arty, (tank), Ftr, and AA.  This can be bolstered by fighters or bombers coming from the UK (especially if Egy is wiped out on G1), and once again will force Japan to commit some serious forces to overcome.  I don’t believe that the Japanese can simultaneously mount a credible Polar Express, gobble up Siberia, subdue China, grab Australia, land in Africa and push thru India-Persia against those kind of threats.  Something will have to give, even if it just means that they ignore Africa and Siberia (which will take a 10-IPC or so junk out of their potential “Godzilla” income).

[Lucifer]

I still think axis are slightly favored, but theres no reason to believe that axis are more favored in 41 +NOs than allies in revised. Remember that in 25% of all games Germany will lose the Egy battle, 20%-25% of all games Japan will lose at least one J1 battle which will be a setback for Japan, Japan will use 1-3 rnds more to reach godzilla level, means more time for Russia to fight against Germany and Italy. If Germany do Kalia G1, they could lose 2 air units, etc. I tried some ADS games where I (axis) did not attack Egy or Kalia G1, a good allied player can often give the axis very strong resistance, and also win many games, if axis fails to expand very quickly.

With very efficient allied strats and good playing skills, we’re coming closer to knowing the turn1 “must-do-attacks” for axis, same concept as in revised, in AAR Germany must attack Egy, and if it fails….and if in AA50 Japan fails and do some mistakes J1, it’s also possible for a US pac strat to reduce Japan to a minimum. But it seems like KGF is still more efficient, even when playing with NOs.
In revised a bid is needed, b/c we how play efficient, in AA50 41 + NOs, imo it’s too soon to say for sure about bids, b/c AA50 is much more complex, the first rnd is very different from revised, and a 2-3 (allied) unit(s) bid in AA50 could be devastating if used by skilled players.

[Telamon]

@dondoolee:

Hell, I want to say maybe 1 out of 15 games it is over after G1.  I have seen the entire relevant Brit navy destroyed, Egy Taken, Ukraine, E Pol, Belussia, AND even Kar obliterated before Russia moves.  This is virtually impossible to recover from.

The real gambles for the axis seem to revolve around Egy mostly, along with balancing British fleet vs hitting Karalea or not.  I think that is THE KEY feature of the entire game right there.

Exactly my thoughts on the game at present. Too much seems to come down to the rolls in T1 (with Germany’s being more important than Japan’s, who will steamroll anyway even if set back a turn or so by bad rolls).  A strong G1 (with egypt being the single most important battle) and it’s good night allies.  I think the game would be much better with an extra infantry in Egypt and India, a China that doesn’t crack like a biscuit and more cash for the axis.  I don’t think 1941 is unbalanced, just that it comes down to luck in the first turn as much as skill.

1942 seems to fix most of these problems in my mind - I’ve played it less, but am liking it more so far.  The most important feature is that the UK holds on to africa without dispute for the first few turns, so there’s more emphasis on strategy over good dice.  It’s also nice that Germany is relatively stronger compared to Japan.  Japan can actually be quite vulnerable if some of their attacks go bad.  They certainly have to make choices, unlike in 1941 where they can do everything at once without sweating.

[Octopus]

Tarkonis,

Here are a few hints to help you out. Buy more infantry (not necessarily all infantry) with Russia to absorb the German armor. Russia is designed with strategic depth, which means you can lose quite a bit before it really affects you (read: ignore the loss of Karelia). Knowing Germany’s supply lines are long, try landing British troops in Poland to cut off reinforcements to the German lines (or at least keep the German Armor from moving 2 spaces).

The map is also designed to allow Russia to cut off German forces that occupy Karelia so they may not escape.

On the Western Front, while the US takes 2 turns to get to France try timing a large British landing in France at the same time as the US landing. In other words when you take France, dont give it back.

There is an easy (cheap) way to stop the Polar Express, you just have to be imaginative to figure it out.

Explore the Allies a bit more….I see no reason they cannot win.

[tarkonis]

Thanks for all your help :) i’ll try my best to put all the advice into practice.