How to achieve balance part 2-> bids

[axis_roll]

@squirecam:

@axis_roll:

It appears that the allied efforts against Japan will lose steam as the Japanese income expands as they overun Asia.  There is just not enough resistance to the japanese asia forces….

Only if you play with NO though, correct?

Somehow, I seem to recall this same thing for revised. “KJF” just isnt possible…. blah blah.

I’m sure someone smart enough will figure out a way.

Japan didn’t have 5 transports to start in Revised.

Japan didn’t have 9 fighters to start in Revised

UK went BEFORE japan in Revised

Those are three very big factors that help prevent KJF.

Without NO’s might be easier as Japan’s income would be $15 less….

[squirecam]

@axis_roll:

@squirecam:

In 1941. Without NO. How much of a bid does the axis need then to be competitive?

Can’t say that I know, we always play with the NOs (tuned down to $4 NO’s)

I wonder if we could find enough people to test this. We’d need 20 games for a good start.

Play 2 games vs an “equal” opponent. No tech. No NO.

If the consensus is correct, the allies should win 19-1, correct?? (given one statistical dice @$@&* to axis)

So who would sign up to be axis and prove the consensus wrong?

[squirecam]

@axis_roll:

@squirecam:

@axis_roll:

It appears that the allied efforts against Japan will lose steam as the Japanese income expands as they overun Asia.  There is just not enough resistance to the japanese asia forces….

Only if you play with NO though, correct?

Somehow, I seem to recall this same thing for revised. “KJF” just isnt possible…. blah blah.

I’m sure someone smart enough will figure out a way.

Japan didn’t have 5 transports to start in Revised.

Japan didn’t have 9 fighters to start in Revised

UK went BEFORE japan in Revised

Those are three very big factors that help prevent KJF.

Without NO’s might be easier as Japan’s income would be $15 less….

I agree it would be more difficult. Just not ready to say it cant be done.

[axis_roll]

@squirecam:

@axis_roll:

@squirecam:

@axis_roll:

It appears that the allied efforts against Japan will lose steam as the Japanese income expands as they overun Asia.  There is just not enough resistance to the japanese asia forces….

Only if you play with NO though, correct?

Somehow, I seem to recall this same thing for revised. “KJF” just isnt possible…. blah blah.

I’m sure someone smart enough will figure out a way.

Japan didn’t have 5 transports to start in Revised.

Japan didn’t have 9 fighters to start in Revised

UK went BEFORE japan in Revised

Those are three very big factors that help prevent KJF.

Without NO’s might be easier as Japan’s income would be $15 less….

I agree it would be more difficult. Just not ready to say it cant be done.

Egpyt would have to survive on G1 for UK to even consider that strategy and then Russia has to make that commitment on R1 to India (and then and only then does UK  have a chance to help against Japan with an India IC if Japan is played improperly).

Again, my opinion, but it’s too easy for Japan to control the south pacific early to prevent anything from the allies.  Australia?  Can’t really see that happening either.

Then you’ve got US on Japan 1-on-1.  May work… but then Germany and Italy are all over africa and europe and good-bye russia.

I have thought about this alot.  I WISH it were possible, but very doubtful without unleashing the German war machine… ouch!

[Flying Tiger]

@axis_roll:

@Zhukov44:

We are just talking about how to balance it in a way that promotes a fun and balanced game where a variety of strategies are plausible, rather than balancing it in such a way that the only reasonable choice is the same old race to Berlin and Moscow.

If you think the game is balanced and fun as it is (ie monster Japan vrs. Allied KGF every game) then great.  I do too…I’d just like to play with a real China and see whether this would open up some KJF possibilities.

Excellent point!  +1 karma

I think this needs to be specified when we speak of balance:

I prefer the former (balance it in a way that promotes a fun and balanced game where a variety of strategies are plausible).

However in my limited (20 games) experience, it is my opinion that this is not possible with the current OOB rules.  In fact, my FTF group has already altered the rules since we live by the above creedo (in RED)

What have you changed? Getting action in the pacific is my main objective. Seems everyone wants bids but you know they will just go towards a KGF, except chinese units and even then we still don’t have pacific action like we should.

[axis_roll]

@Flying:

@axis_roll:

However in my limited (20 games) experience, it is my opinion that this is not possible with the current OOB rules.  In fact, my FTF group has already altered the rules since we live by the above creedo (in RED)

What have you changed? Getting action in the pacific is my main objective. Seems everyone wants bids but you know they will just go towards a KGF, except chinese units and even then we still don’t have pacific action like we should.

I know this should probably be in the house rules section.  But I was asked…

We have incorporated the optional rules of escorted SBRs (modified to not let the aaa shots affect ftrs), closed the darndenelles, reduced NO’s to be worth $4 and some of our own Chinese Mods:

Let the ftr be non-combat moved at start of game.  China gets an IC that is mobile: it can move one territory a turn and place units (no limit).  China also collects income at the end of their turn like everyone else and buys units, inf cost $2, everything else is normal costs.  Once China’s IC is lost, it is lost forever.  The IC can be bombed like any other IC.

no bid

Thus far, the chinese have still been beaten back all the way to Chinghai but not quite eliminated in the two games we’ve used these rules.  Stopping the Japanese there helps russia not have to worry about novosibirsk and kazakh.  The first game is a great game that we wrote down in round 6 (to be completed later), still very even with some pacific action as UK added an Indian IC round 2.

The second game the axis game play was very weak, so that game was not a good game play test.

[critmonster]

if japan was not allowed to attack china first turn or china went “first” then  germany, etc I think that asia and thusly the pacific would see a change but not too great of one. I am going to suggest this next game to my group.

[Lynxes]

Then you want to change the game itself, not the side balance.

AA50 is the way it is designed. AA50 is supposed to have Europe balanced and Asia unbalanced, if that is your perception of AA50. What you’re really saying is that you don’t like the game, or only a part of it.

Also, AA50 is designed so that w/o NOs KGF is more efficent than KJF. If you don’t like it this way, you want another game, or an AA50 mode, like China mod. Then play the China mod if you don’t like AA50.

Subotai, I think you are in the wrong here. NOs were added in order to give Axis more of fighting chance (and of course the bidding for Axis in Revised contributed to this decision), and give the Pacific more of a role in the game. And it has succeeded, but not as good as it could have. Going for China inf bids is MORE in the line of how AA50 is designed, not less. Unlimited unit bids will be EGY inf bids and KAR art bids and Germany will be weaker -> back to AAR strategies. Do you want to turn AA50 into AAR?  :?

[Lucifer]

@ Lynxes, I don’t think the AA50 play testers are noobs, not all of them.

And it will hurt allies to lose all Pacific NOs, even if KGIF is still stronger than KJF, also when using NOs.

I’m not assuming that the design team did wrong until I hear otherwise.

And AA50 is already kind of “advanced revised”.

[DarthMaximus]

@axis_roll:

@DarthMaximus:

It’s interesting, I think we may see more KJF type manuevers as we play more games.  Just recently I’ve seen some pretty neat stuff with the UK Aus trn, now I’m thinking you can get that trn to Sz 56 on UK 2 and then take the Canadian forces to Car Is. on UK 3 backed-up by Heavy US naval buys on US 1, 2, and 3.  This gives the UK an extra NO.  Will Japan try and sink the combined fleet?  A bunch of US subs in Sz 56 could then counter.

What if Russia stacks Bury heavy?  They may expect to lose a ton of inf, but how does this effect J’s future assualt on Ind/Aus?  And what if this is planned to help UK take Car Is. on UK 2 with US reinforcements.

I do think there may be some openings to go after Japan.  Well, I see potential openings, just a matter of seeing if they can actually be put into use.

It appears that the allied efforts against Japan will lose steam as the Japanese income expands as they overun Asia.  There is just not enough resistance to the japanese asia forces….

< Cue Functioneta >

But the vaste majority of Asia is 1 ipc Ter.  Russia with Fin/Nor compensates for Bury, Sfe, Stc, Yak, Eve and puts Russia in position to get its 2nd NO as early as Rd 3 (via Bul, I think Bul counts).  UK can invade Car Is with US back-up as early as rd 2.

I’m not saying it would be easy, but I’m not convinced it can’t be done.  It is hard enough to work out the new logistics in the Atlantic with Ger going first and Italy being around, so the Pac will take an equal adjustment.  And while Japan going before the UK changes some things it also give the Allies a nice 1-2 on Japan with UK going first and US reinforcing.

I’m contemplating bringing the Sz 9 DD/trn over to the Pac so I could have 2 trns, 2 dds and 2 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm but that would depend on how successful G was on G1.  Still with 43 ipc, UK can still buy 1 ac, 1 trn, 2 dd with 7 more or 3 ca, 1 trn for the Atlantic.
They should only need 1 trn for Rd 2.

On the US side of things they can almost immediately match the J fleet if they spend all 40 on the Pac in Rd 1.  And there are a variety of possible buys from 2 BB to 2 ac, 1 ftr to 1 BB, 1 AC, 1 sub to 2 CAs, 1 dd, 1 trn to, 1 ac + dd/subs, etc.

Even a US fleet at HI can threaten several key islands and the US can easily do that by US 2.  It may be a hollow threat but Japan must be aware of it and it could mean no attack on Aus or weakened assualt on Ind b/c otherwise Japan risks having some of its fleet waaaay out of position.

[axis_roll]

@DarthMaximus:

@axis_roll:

@DarthMaximus:

It’s interesting, I think we may see more KJF type manuevers as we play more games.  Just recently I’ve seen some pretty neat stuff with the UK Aus trn, now I’m thinking you can get that trn to Sz 56 on UK 2 and then take the Canadian forces to Car Is. on UK 3 backed-up by Heavy US naval buys on US 1, 2, and 3.  This gives the UK an extra NO.  Will Japan try and sink the combined fleet?  A bunch of US subs in Sz 56 could then counter.

What if Russia stacks Bury heavy?  They may expect to lose a ton of inf, but how does this effect J’s future assualt on Ind/Aus?  And what if this is planned to help UK take Car Is. on UK 2 with US reinforcements.

I do think there may be some openings to go after Japan.  Well, I see potential openings, just a matter of seeing if they can actually be put into use.

It appears that the allied efforts against Japan will lose steam as the Japanese income expands as they overun Asia.  There is just not enough resistance to the japanese asia forces….

< Cue Functioneta >

But the vaste majority of Asia is 1 ipc Ter.  Russia with Fin/Nor compensates for Bury, Sfe, Stc, Yak, Eve and puts Russia in position to get its 2nd NO as early as Rd 3 (via Bul, I think Bul counts).  UK can invade Car Is with US back-up as early as rd 2.

I’m contemplating bringing the Sz 9 DD/trn over to the Pac so I could have 2 trns, 2 dds and 2 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm but that would depend on how successful G was on G1.  Still with 43 ipc, UK can still buy 1 ac, 1 trn, 2 dd with 7 more or 3 ca, 1 trn for the Atlantic.
They should only need 1 trn for Rd 2.

So russia is going to stack buryatia AND get their second NO against Germany by round 3?  Perhaps with help of an an even weakened UK navy that is sending DD’s to the pacific….

@DarthMaximus:

I’m not saying it would be easy, but I’m not convinced it can’t be done.  It is hard enough to work out the new logistics in the Atlantic with Ger going first and Italy being around, so the Pac will take an equal adjustment.  And while Japan going before the UK changes some things it also give the Allies a nice 1-2 on Japan with UK going first and US reinforcing.

On the US side of things they can almost immediately match the J fleet if they spend all 40 on the Pac in Rd 1.  And there are a variety of possible buys from 2 BB to 2 ac, 1 ftr to 1 BB, 1 AC, 1 sub to 2 CAs, 1 dd, 1 trn to, 1 ac + dd/subs, etc.

Even a US fleet at HI can threaten several key islands and the US can easily do that by US 2.  It may be a hollow threat but Japan must be aware of it and it could mean no attack on Aus or weakened assualt on Ind b/c otherwise Japan risks having some of its fleet waaaay out of position.

To what end does threatening a few islands really mean?
The US fleet could never venture close enough to Japan as early as US2.

How long can US sacrifice transports for small island gains?

It will be many rounds of USA full income pacific spending before USA can go on the offensive against the IJN.

And what happens to the European theatre while US concentrates all their money in the Pacific?  Germany and Italy will go largely unchecked.

---

Note that Tech is not in this discussion… a strong weapon is really the only way USA can break the stalemate between the US navy and the IJN

[bugoo]

In my opinion the largest reason the pacific theater is so messed up is because of the atlantic theater being flawed.  Without US aid G/I become to large to ignore and you yield economic advantage to the axis.  Not to mention you go where the money is, and it is in Europe.

While Africa isn’t worth much to the allies, thats 10+ IPC to deny to the axis.  Finland/Norway are easy to take in a KGF so there is another 5.  There is also the beautiful 10 IPC Russian NO that is very possible to get by turn 3-5, as well as france, worth a whopping 16 to the allies just in trading!  France is the single, most valuable territory to hold in this game.  On top of this it is possible to deny germany it’s NOs when using a KGF approach, they should only get 3 nos maybe one turn, and should be down to 1 or none around turn 5.  You cannot do that to Japan.

What can you get economically in the pacific in early game for allies, 1 UK NO?  Maybe an island?  And your going to prevent japan from all 3 of her NOs how exactly?

[Lucifer]

I got a word from the AA50 main game designer, hope thats worth something……

“I guess I would opt for the money bid… get the money and purchase what you think you need to balance the game.”

[Veqryn]

Japan makes 65 IPCs every turn at turn 3, America makes 48 IPCs every turn at turn 3.  Nuff said.

[axis_roll]

@bugoo:

In my opinion the largest reason the pacific theater is so messed up is because of the atlantic theater being flawed.  Without US aid G/I become to large to ignore and you yield economic advantage to the axis.  Not to mention you go where the money is, and it is in Europe.

While Africa isn’t worth much to the allies, thats 10+ IPC to deny to the axis.  Finland/Norway are easy to take in a KGF so there is another 5.  There is also the beautiful 10 IPC Russian NO that is very possible to get by turn 3-5, as well as france, worth a whopping 16 to the allies just in trading!  France is the single, most valuable territory to hold in this game.  On top of this it is possible to deny germany it’s NOs when using a KGF approach, they should only get 3 nos maybe one turn, and should be down to 1 or none around turn 5.  You cannot do that to Japan.

What can you get economically in the pacific in early game for allies, 1 UK NO?  Maybe an island?  And your going to prevent japan from all 3 of her NOs how exactly?

Good points and
Well said.

[Lynxes]

Pacific isn’t really about grabbing IPCs, unlike Europe. So a pure KJF is unlikely. But a pure KGF is problematic as well since Japan can send everything against Russia if USA ignores Pacific. I find it harder to play Axis when USA builds some stuff in Pacific while still investing a majority of IPCs against Europe. Japan will then be forced to keep its fleet together and a majority of its air force, seriously weakening its mainland advance (also protecting Africa from being invaded). If Japan admits the Yanks into the Pacific, UK and US will gain IPCs and Japan lose them, this is unlikely to happen against good Jap play but the threat of it happening is good enough to shelter Russia from a full onslaught.

That said, I think Japan still is too strong, hence China inf bids being the best thing in my eyes, but AA50 at least gives a better reason to invest in Pacific as USA. Also a major reason for this is the surviving CV at-start which gives the US a real chance of building a fleet quite cheaply. Japan should be forced to fight a two-front war, just like Germany!

[Funcioneta]

@Veqryn:

Japan makes 65 IPCs every turn at turn 3, America makes 48 IPCs every turn at turn 3.  Nuff said.

That’s true in case of building Pacific navy as USA. Without it, and Japan going Polar Express, Japan can reach 70 and USA will be reduced to 40 (1 USA NO, Alaska, Hawaii and Wcan). Japan could split her income: 40 IPCs against USA and the other 30 against UK and soviets. I doubt euroallies can hold much alone against euroaxis + 30 japanese IPCs

[Telamon]

Quick side point: why on earth does Japan make 60-65 / turn.  It’s 50% more than the US.  It’s absurd.

I realise that the game’s an abstraction, but I have trouble suspending disbelief on this one…

[Telamon]

@Lynxes:

Pacific isn’t really about grabbing IPCs, unlike Europe. So a pure KJF is unlikely. But a pure KGF is problematic as well since Japan can send everything against Russia if USA ignores Pacific. I find it harder to play Axis when USA builds some stuff in Pacific while still investing a majority of IPCs against Europe. Japan will then be forced to keep its fleet together and a majority of its air force, seriously weakening its mainland advance (also protecting Africa from being invaded). If Japan admits the Yanks into the Pacific, UK and US will gain IPCs and Japan lose them, this is unlikely to happen against good Jap play but the threat of it happening is good enough to shelter Russia from a full onslaught.

That said, I think Japan still is too strong, hence China inf bids being the best thing in my eyes, but AA50 at least gives a better reason to invest in Pacific as USA. Also a major reason for this is the surviving CV at-start which gives the US a real chance of building a fleet quite cheaply. Japan should be forced to fight a two-front war, just like Germany!

I largely agree with this.  I’m leaning to the view that USA is better off mainly in the pacific and sending a small contingent to north africa to keep italy in check and threaten landings.  Japan’s IPC can be more effectively deployed against russia than america’s can against Gitaly.  Thus, if you send american assets at Japan… net gain (irrespective of the value of the pacific).  You can force Japan to build boats, which will not help them at all against russia.

But it’s also very tempting to let japan have its pacific lake and send everything to Dday…

[DarthMaximus]

@axis_roll:

So russia is going to stack buryatia AND get their second NO against Germany by round 3?  Perhaps with help of an an even weakened UK navy that is sending DD’s to the pacific….

I’m not necessarily saying you can do this all at once, but I was just throwing out options.  I haven’t played that many games of AA50, but I can see myself trying a Bury stack in one game, or a UK move to Pac in another, etc.  Unless other have tried them and the game is posted where I can read the moves it didn’t work.

As for the 2nd Russian NO, that can be independent of the other moves.  I mean Russia always has the option to attack Fin in Rd 1, pending Ger moves Nor can then be taken by Rus or UK in Rd 2, meanwhile you probably have a decent stack of Inf 7-9, mabye 1 arm in Cauc at the end of R1, that can easily be moved to Ukr on R2 (since Ger tends to focus on Kar early and is lacking in Inf to start), and that makes Bul tradeable for your 2nd NO.  A Bury stack is somewaht irrelevant since theose Inf can’t get to Mos for like 4-5 rds.

@axis_roll:

To what end does threatening a few islands really mean?
The US fleet could never venture close enough to Japan as early as US2.

How long can US sacrifice transports for small island gains?

It will be many rounds of USA full income pacific spending before USA can go on the offensive against the IJN.

And what happens to the European theatre while US concentrates all their money in the Pacific?  Germany and Italy will go largely unchecked.

It really depends on the overall Allied strat.  I wouldn’t claim there is some automatic way where if you do this then you automatcally will win.

But the US does start with 4 ftrs, 2 bom, 1 ac, 1 dd, and Japan will typically buy an IC (or perhaps another trn) rarely have I seen Japan immediate go offensive navy on J1.  So if the US buys something like 1 AC, 1 dd, 3 subs you immediately have 3 subs, 2 dd, 2 ac, 4 ftrs in Sz 56.  Can this sink the J fleet?  No.  But will Japan make an effort to try and sink your fleet?  I don’t know.

IMO one of the key things about navies is you don’t have to sink them, and trying to sink them can be a huge pain.  BUT you can manuever them and use blocker ships etc.  If you can force the IJN back to its home island sz early enough it is equivalent to sinking it.  From there the burden is on them to sink your fleet since you can now claim all the islands at your leisure.  Also depending on timing you can afford to lose Mos to Ger if it means you’ll eventually get Japan.

I do agree though, that it is slightly worse off for the US b/c they cannot gain credit for Bor or EI.  In AA50 you essentially have to gun for Phil, which is fine and doable but it would be a bit better to be able to go from Sol to EI, to Bor, then to Phil.

I’m still more of a KGF player since Germany is main threat in AA50 but I also like to try new stuff from time to time.  Eventually I’ll get around to testing more things in the Pac.