@hbg-gw-enthusiast Yeah. 1936 is a long game to play, it takes a lot of time to roll for each ship and each colony by the rules. Vichy being light blue just helps with pacing.
Free France a Given?
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I’m feeling like this may be a dumb question, but going to ask anyways, as this just dawned on me.
Long story short on the front end: The rules say that the Axis may create Vichy France once France surrenders. Just throwing that part out there as fact.
From there, the rest of the rules, in the rule book, on the Reference Sheets, etc., all assume Free France as a given in the game.
But what if the Axis decide to not create Vichy France? What happens then?
I only ask because the rules do not seem to take this into consideration. You have rolls to see if French territory becomes Free or Vichy French. Well, if Vichy isn’t created, do all non-Home Country French territories automatically become Free French? What happens with the French Navy? Rolling a 7-10 currently makes them turn Vichy, but that isn’t an option if Vichy isn’t created. Do you still roll to see what happens to French naval forces at all?
If the game has a Free France regardless of Vichy France being formed or not, I struggle to see the upside in not creating Vichy France. Sure, you can take the territory now if you wanted, but there’s who knows how many French units out there now, making more money. Japan can’t just take FIC for free any more, do they risk war early on with France to take this, or how does it affect them?
I have a feeling that it was just assumed as the rules were written that Vichy France will always be formed. In fact, I will probably house rule to say this isn’t an option.
But am I missing something here? Did I overlook something in the rules on this?
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Yeah, re-reading the rules it appears to me (I dont know if the rule is new) that creating Vichy is completely optional.
While I imagine that the colonies and navy would automatically go to FF (or perhaps just the results where it goes Vichy are re-rolled), the rules in 14.4 don’t explicitly say what happens.
I like that they have the option. I’m sure there are a couple situations where not creating Vichy might be beneficial (perhaps predicated on the French navy being suicided into something or Germany really requiring southern France being able to be crossed by its aircraft.)
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My thought would be that if Germany elects not to make Vichy for some reason, then France is treated like any other power who surrenders.
According to 9.22:
“All player nations have surrender conditions. Refer to each National Reference Sheet for details on if how and when they surrender.”
According to the French Sheet:
“France surrenders immediately when either: a) Paris is enemy-possessed or b) all land zones surrounding Paris are Enemy-possessed. Germany may implement Vichy rule (14.4). Other Allied units in Paris are eliminated.”
Back to 9.22:
“When a player nation surrenders, remove all it’s units from the board unless otherwise stated in the rules.”
It also says in 14.4.1:
"Once France surrenders (whether or not Vichy is implemented) the French player takes command of Free France which includes all French units on the board that are not in French Home Country. (or Vichy land zones)"To me, this seems to say that after France surrenders, Free France gets all of its colonies and units to continue the fight. This would leave the French navy and colonial forces intact, and doesn’t seem to be a great idea for the Germans.
However, some questions:
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There is no mention of what happens to units in France if Vichy is not formed. Do they go Free French, get removed, stay as neutrals?
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In the Vichy rolls it seems to mention that all French colonies are rolled, regardless of their current status. For instance, that would seem to mean that if Italy takes Tunisia, then it would also get rolled for. (14.4.2.“French Colonies”)
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What happens if Italy takes Paris. Or the USSR? I know they get the money, but is Vichy formed? Also, the captured ship, do they go to them or Germany? Also, if the surrender happens on Italy’s turn, say b/c they took Southern France to encircle Paris, can Vichy form? I think not, but it is vague. (14.4.2.“Vichy creation”)
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Also, according to 9.22, if a major power surrenders, its aligned or controlled minor’s are given to an ally. Does this occur with Abyssinia, or other french minor? 14.4.2.“French controlled & Aligned minor powers” says they go to Free France. What takes precedence?
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Also, what of the troops from aligned minors? Are they automatically Free like their land, or are they rolleed for? That could cause some interesting results, and would need a lot of tracking. (14.4.2.“French Controlled & Aligned Minor Powers”)
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Allied units in France if Paris is taken. What happens? The rules say they “move out of France” but how does that happen? Do they just move out in later turns, or are teleported out?
Similarly, what if Axis units are in a Vichy zone, but there is no adjacent axis territory for them to move to? (14.4.2.“Other Forces”) -
Also, it says the place the Vichy army in “Vichy France.” Is that Southern France, or any Vichy land zone, or what? (14.4.2.“Vichy Army”)
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What happens if France is conquered again? For instance, Paris is liberated and Germany takes it back. Does this all happen again? (Looting, Vichy, etc) Also, what if an airborne takes Paris but it is surrounded by the Axis? Are the conditions reversed and France formed? Paris is liberated, but it is still surrounded. (14.4.1)
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Does France surrender if the USSR hold Normandy and the Germans Picardy, Lorraine, Southern France and Aquitaine? (Assuming France is not at war with the USSR.)
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And finally, as a design note, why do the rolls put Niger and Dahomey with French Equatorial Africa, and not French West Africa that they were a part of? Similarly, the Pacific colonies were governed separately. Please give me a reason not to go the historical route.
Those are my thoughts, and I would like to see other’s answers to my question, or other questions you have.
-Trig -
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I have the same conclusions as @Trig for me creating Vichy is way more interesting for the Germans. Or maybe, the classic surrender rule applies when Vichy is not created and all the units are removed from the board.
Some of your others questions are also interesting, I hope that someone could help!
Unfortunately, I don’t come with answers but more questions, as you invited us: “or other questions you have”.
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In page 61, rule 14.4.2 : “All french Aligned Minor Powers (e.g. Abyssinia) become Align to Free French”. The errata recently remove the word “controlled” (page 3).
The problem is that: if Abyssinia isn’t annex by Italy and the war between them continue until the surrendering of France. Abyssinia is ONLY CONTROLLED by France, as long as Italy doesn’t declare war on France before the fall of this last country.
So it means that: Abyssinia isn’t considered Align with France and Abyssinia isn’t aligned with Free France. Then Abyssinia only remains controlled by Free France? -
In the USA reference sheet (page 2) on the peacetime income increases: “Japan declares war on British Commonwealth or France: +5D12” and “Japan declares war on any other neutral: +2D12”.
If Vichy France is created and Free France gets the French Indochina Provinces (Annam-Tonkin and Cochinchina), when Japan attacks, the USA gets 5D12 or 2D12? Because it’s not France but a neutral minor.
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@insanehoshi Yeah, that’s my reading of it too. Doesn’t say what happens. I guess I should clarify, I like that you have the option to create Vichy or not, but part of that for me depends on what happens to French units then. For the same reasons you said above. I don’t want to see French naval suicide missions just to get use out of them!
@Trig So, I get what you’re saying generally, but remember that any other nation that surrenders is wiped off the board entirely. So this wouldn’t be something we want here.
14.4.1 is probably the most concrete piece that says Free France is still formed. But it still doesn’t answer what specifically happens to create Free France. It says they atke possession of all Free French territory, but we’re not told if that’s just every French territory in their non-Home Country possession, or what. And we don’t have a determination on rolling for navies either.
So you think you wouldn’t roll for navies at all? Just everything stays on the board and is Free French?
- There is no mention of what happens to units in France if Vichy is not formed. Do they go Free French, get removed, stay as neutrals?
I think this would be determined by 14.4.1 that you quoted above. It says they take command of all French Units not in French Home Country. That to me means anything remaining in France itself is removed from the game, same as if Vichy were being formed.
- In the Vichy rolls it seems to mention that all French colonies are rolled, regardless of their current status. For instance, that would seem to mean that if Italy takes Tunisia, then it would also get rolled for. (14.4.2.“French Colonies”)
While an interesting point, I can’t imagine something already possessed by another Axis member would be subject to this rule? That would suck to just take that away from Italy. But I obviously could be wrong.
- What happens if Italy takes Paris. Or the USSR? I know they get the money, but is Vichy formed? Also, the captured ship, do they go to them or Germany? Also, if the surrender happens on Italy’s turn, say b/c they took Southern France to encircle Paris, can Vichy form? I think not, but it is vague. (14.4.2.“Vichy creation”)
I think you’d still have the option to create Vichy. The Vichy Reference Sheet says “Immediately after French surrender, the German player may opt to create a new neutral Minor Power called Vichy France”. This doesn’t specify that a specific nation has to make France surrender, only that Germany can decide this once France surrenders. While very true this would be odd in the event of a USSR takeover, the chances of that are probably slim. I think they made assumptions in the rules of Germany/the Axis taking out France. I personally do not like that the rules make tons of assumptions throughout, a rule should be concrete and binding. But that would be my guess, that this situation wasn’t really considered.
- Also, according to 9.22, if a major power surrenders, its aligned or controlled minor’s are given to an ally. Does this occur with Abyssinia, or other french minor? 14.4.2.“French controlled & Aligned minor powers” says they go to Free France. What takes precedence?
While I totally get your point, I think this is another one that was maybe overlooked as assuming Abyssinia will have fallen to Italy by any point Free France is created. Not saying I like the oversight, but I think that’s what it is. I’d have to imagine you’d roll for anything that was aligned by that point to see if they become Vichy or Free French.
- Also, what of the troops from aligned minors? Are they automatically Free like their land, or are they rolleed for? That could cause some interesting results, and would need a lot of tracking. (14.4.2.“French Controlled & Aligned Minor Powers”)
Same as the above I’d think. I think the Vichy creation rules stay in play here. If you roll Abyssinia as being Free French, it and all French units on it become Free French. Same as any originally controlled French colonies like Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, etc. Again, just my take, because you’re right that this isn’t addressed.
- Allied units in France if Paris is taken. What happens? The rules say they “move out of France” but how does that happen? Do they just move out in later turns, or are teleported out?
The “Other Forces” portion of the Vichy Reference sheet says: If Allied forces are in any other part of France when the French surrender, they are allowed to move out of France. If they cannot they are eliminated. However, if Paris is encircled with Allied units in it, those units immediately surrender with Paris and are removed from the game".
So to me that means that Allied units have one chance to make a normal free movement phase out of French territory, and if they cannot, they’re dead. So you’d need a transport on the coast, or be able to use the narrow crossing, or if Spain, Belgium, or Switzerland were somehow Allied aligned at this point.
Similarly, what if Axis units are in a Vichy zone, but there is no adjacent axis territory for them to move to? (14.4.2.“Other Forces”)
Unless I’m not understanding your question, I don’t think this is possible. If Vichy is being formed, the rest of France is under Axis control. So they can simply move to Paris, Bordeaux, Lorraine, or Northern Italy even.
- Also, it says the place the Vichy army in “Vichy France.” Is that Southern France, or any Vichy land zone, or what? (14.4.2.“Vichy Army”)
That’s Southern France. The Vichy Reference Sheet is more clear in “Vichy Army”: “Place 3 Infantry, 1 Fighter, and 1 Artillery in Southern France”.
- What happens if France is conquered again? For instance, Paris is liberated and Germany takes it back. Does this all happen again? (Looting, Vichy, etc) Also, what if an airborne takes Paris but it is surrounded by the Axis? Are the conditions reversed and France formed? Paris is liberated, but it is still surrounded. (14.4.1)
I 99.99% sure this does not happen again. I can’t remember if this is in the rules somewhere, or if it’s just been asked before, but I do remember a definitive answer that this is a one time thing. But I’m just simply old me, so maybe you can’t take my word for it haha.
- Does France surrender if the USSR hold Normandy and the Germans Picardy, Lorraine, Southern France and Aquitaine? (Assuming France is not at war with the USSR.)
Great question, and another I would say was overlooked as a possibility. My gut would say no. But realize that the Allies can declare war on the Comintern if they have an originally controlled Allied Territory. That doesn’t mean the Allies will for sure declare war, but just something to keep in mind.
- And finally, as a design note, why do the rolls put Niger and Dahomey with French Equatorial Africa, and not French West Africa that they were a part of? Similarly, the Pacific colonies were governed separately. Please give me a reason not to go the historical route.
While I get what you’re saying, I think we can’t do the historical route for parts if we don’t do it for all. If going historical, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Corsica, Southern France, Syria, and Madagascar should all automatically become Vichy, and every other French African colony should become Free, while Indochina goes to Japan, as with the islands. I think they lumped these groups together for playability. This way you don’t roll for 6 territories in one lumped African group, and only 3 in another. This way those two groups are split 5/5 down the middle. Somewhat the same with the Pacific islands. I think for the sake of speeding this process along they are just man to be Japanese for sphere of influence purposes.
@Didier_de_Dax That would be really the biggest reason I ask this question! If the classic surrender rules apply, where everything is just removed from the board, that leaves a ton of French suicide attacks in the offing, specifically with their naval forces that otherwise wouldn’t have happened!
My gut tells me that if you don’t create Vichy, then all French colonies and units not in Home Country all just become Free French at that point, with no rolling for naval units or anything. It just wasn’t addressed in the rules completely. I had missed the part in 14.4.1 that @Trig called out as implying Free France is created regardless of Vichy creation. But the rules should have spelled out a more obvious function of that than they do, namely what I say in the first sentence of this paragraph.
- In page 61, rule 14.4.2 : “All french Aligned Minor Powers (e.g. Abyssinia) become Align to Free French”. The errata recently remove the word “controlled” (page 3).
The problem is that: if Abyssinia isn’t annex by Italy and the war between them continue until the surrendering of France. Abyssinia is ONLY CONTROLLED by France, as long as Italy doesn’t declare war on France before the fall of this last country.
So it means that: Abyssinia isn’t considered Align with France and Abyssinia isn’t aligned with Free France. Then Abyssinia only remains controlled by Free France?
A very good point. I was going to say they would be Aligned since Germany would have taken out France, but they have to be at war with the same Major, so you’re right in that they would only be controlled. I think it would stay that way, and Abyssinia would just be a controlled minor power by Free France. But I could be wrong! Again, I have a feeling the rules were written regarding Abyssinia here as if Italy will have already taken them out.
- In the USA reference sheet (page 2) on the peacetime income increases: “Japan declares war on British Commonwealth or France: +5D12” and “Japan declares war on any other neutral: +2D12”.
If Vichy France is created and Free France gets the French Indochina Provinces (Annam-Tonkin and Cochinchina), when Japan attacks, the USA gets 5D12 or 2D12? Because it’s not France but a neutral minor.
Another interesting query. My gut says 2D12 here. Unless specified in the rules, I think we have to assume that minor power mentions would include Free France moving forward. Just something else to consider when playing I suppose!
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@chris_henry
@insaneHoshi
@Didier_de_DaxSome FAQ is up:
Q: What happens to the French ships and colonies if the German player elects to not create Vichy?
A: The all become Free French -
@trig Thanks! Doesn’t seem like such a hard thing to put in rules now does it? hahaha
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