G1 naval build?

[HannibalSW]

A German fleet could alleviate pressure from the Italian fleet.  If you are the allies which fleet do you want to sink first?  The Germans fleet because it cost them units on the ground? Or the Italian fleet because they can not readily replace lost boats as fast?  If the U.S. feels pressured to help the U.K. then Japan might feel free to help itself to the entire Pacific.

Could someone give Kevlar +1 karma for me, I’d like to thank him for helping to keep me awake at work with all this thinking!

[Funcioneta]

@HannibalSW:

Could someone give Kevlar +1 karma for me, I’d like to thank him for helping to keep me awake at work with all this thinking!

Done  :-D

[dondoolee]

@HannibalSW:

A German fleet could alleviate pressure from the Italian fleet.  If you are the allies which fleet do you want to sink first?  The Germans fleet because it cost them units on the ground? Or the Italian fleet because they can not readily replace lost boats as fast?  If the U.S. feels pressured to help the U.K. then Japan might feel free to help itself to the entire Pacific.

Could someone give Kevlar +1 karma for me, I’d like to thank him for helping to keep me awake at work with all this thinking!

But the fleet fails to do it anywhere near as effectivly as air support or if you insist, the occasional well built sub.  This compounds itself even more if we are talking about a G1 build.  Air gives you much better flexibility/ better economical purchasing than anything a navy can accomplish for Germany.  If you want to spend your time threatining the UK with boats and maybe even over commit to Africa, while Russia has a field day with you go right ahead.

On top that, Japan can spare a carrier to the Med by T3 if you really want it there, AND send a fighter/bomber pipeline to the West if you really want to.

The UK has nothing better to do than defend it’s waters, that is its primary objective, never forget that.  The game is built so the UK can and must defend its waters with success (meaning the UK can always successfully defend her waters and that will be a net benefit for the allies, not a waste of money/time/resources), so why plan on building a navy?  If the UK was built to be neuterd by Germany while Germany could succefully hold off/kill Russia what the hell is the point of having the UK in the game for, massive bomber builds?  It is almost the equivlant of a plan for the Allies to allow Russia to go toe to toe with Germany with the hopes of winning.  I guess it could happen with poor axis play, but it just isn’t that great a plan.

[jsp4563]

What the navy can do that air support can’t is protect transports in SZ5 so you can easliy ship units, especially infantry\artillery from Germany to Karelia in 1 move.  That’s the point Kevlar was making, and why I like a G1 naval build.  +1 Kevlar.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

Yes, but any good UK player won’t let any ships last long in the Baltic, in which case he (or she) would most likely use air power to sink it.  The best thing is probably to try and move your fleet to the med in support of Italy, that way you can land troop in Caucasus instead of Karelia.

[Pan]

Even though I mentioned a moderate sub tactic for Germany (+1 sub at most per turn) I have to side with those against a heavy naval strategy for Germany, especially a heavy naval G1 build.  Just to reiterate what others have said or alluded to, the UK has the advantage of being able to spend 100% of its funds each turn to sinking any German ship in the water.  I have never seen a German navy survive against a capable UK player.  At most you might set UK back a couple turns in getting their own navy going but at what cost?  You’ve devoted at least 50% of your spending in the Baltic and allowed Russia time to either build a defense against Japan or push into German territories which probably also cost you some valuable NO’s.  The UK starts 1941 with 43 IPCs and the Germans have 31.  Considering Germany has to split their funds between Russia and this navy while UK can spend everything to build a nice anti-Kriegsmarine RAF, who do you think is going to win that battle for the sea?

As others have mentioned, use the Luftwaffe (and I recommend a few subs) to delay a UK fleet until you can take away their IPCs in Africa and the Pacific.  Their threat decreases significantly when they only have 20 or so IPCs to spend each turn.  You can’t stop it but you might at least be able to control when and where.

I’d be willing to go out on a limb and say anyone who has successfully used a strong G1 naval build probably has not played a very competent UK player or one that is using a KJF strategy.

[dondoolee]

@Emperor:

What the navy can do that air support can’t is protect transports in SZ5 so you can easliy ship units, especially infantry\artillery from Germany to Karelia in 1 move.  That’s the point Kevlar was making, and why I like a G1 naval build.  +1 Kevlar.

I see what he is saying, and it is the best defense I have heard so far.  I still don’t think it is an optimal build though.  22 IPC’s on non aggressive units on T1 that I am guessing could be dead by T2, if the Allies find it neccasary to destroy and Italy can still be destroyed by T3 If the allies want.  So you shuttle out 2 extra units with a transport and lose a navy T2, while delaying the UK for 1 turn, and maybe the US for 1 turn on ship builds.  Is that worth it?

Another question to ask yourself, can the UK just ignore this navy?  All the UK needs is a fleet you can’t sink.  It can still kind of ignore an admittidly annoying navy while still funneling troops to Scandinavia and Western Europe, if it has a navy you can’t sink.  Is that money really best spent to funnel 2 extra units to russia?

Also, you could have built 2 fighters or a bomber and a fighter to help minimize the casualties when attacking karelia, and then land them there for defense, if you can hold it for a turn.

There may very well be opportunities later in the game to build a navy, but T1 just seems like a gambit and a half

[kevlar56]

Thanks all for the karma, I feel kinda like I’ve come home!  :-D  Perhaps I wasn’t completely clear on my second point, which is enticing the UK into desperately spending money to smash a German naval build.  The UK economy is based on territories spread all over the map and unless they want to see their IPC income shrink by 1/2 (or more!) they have to have both money to spend and troops in the right places to defend those territories.  To MY thinking (and this is just IMHO), if the UK spends enough to eliminate a Ger. Baltic Fleet it won’t have enough money to build and defend an IC in Ind. or SA and I believe at least one of those is a necessity unless the UK player is willing to be reduced to a minor power by turn 4 or 5. The corollary to that is that Japan (and possibly Italy) will be pulling in big bucks and able to dominate the eastern hemisphere/africa so much that they will dictate the strategic events of the endgame.  A Ger. CV build increases the strategic threat the UK has to face.  The opening for the Allies is a tightrope and the more decisions you force them to make, the greater the decision tree and the greater likelihood that errors will be made. 
Sorry for being so long-winded, but after reading so many threads about KGF’s and ‘unbeatable’ strategies, I’m just trying to bring things down to earth and present pragmatic ideas as to why a Ger. CV build, while perhaps not an “optimal” choice, is still a viable one and worthy of consideration as a strategic option for the German player.
Best regards,
Kevin

[dondoolee]

@kevlar56:

Thanks all for the karma, I feel kinda like I’ve come home!  :-D  Perhaps I wasn’t completely clear on my second point, which is enticing the UK into desperately spending money to smash a German naval build.  The UK economy is based on territories spread all over the map and unless they want to see their IPC income shrink by 1/2 (or more!) they have to have both money to spend and troops in the right places to defend those territories.  To MY thinking (and this is just IMHO), if the UK spends enough to eliminate a Ger. Baltic Fleet it won’t have enough money to build and defend an IC in Ind. or SA and I believe at least one of those is a necessity unless the UK player is willing to be reduced to a minor power by turn 4 or 5. The corollary to that is that Japan (and possibly Italy) will be pulling in big bucks and able to dominate the eastern hemisphere/africa so much that they will dictate the strategic events of the endgame.  A Ger. CV build increases the strategic threat the UK has to face.  The opening for the Allies is a tightrope and the more decisions you force them to make, the greater the decision tree and the greater likelihood that errors will be made. 
Sorry for being so long-winded, but after reading so many threads about KGF’s and ‘unbeatable’ strategies, I’m just trying to bring things down to earth and present pragmatic ideas as to why a Ger. CV build, while perhaps not an “optimal” choice, is still a viable one and worthy of consideration as a strategic option for the German player.
Best regards,
Kevin

I see the point clearly now, and while I still disagree I am going to play test it a few times Sunday it seems interesting in theory.  At least it is a strat that defends germany, pressures russia (due to the primary purpose being transport protection/shuttling 4 troops to a valuable front), and can make the UK think twice about a strat. 
Question though, is there such a thing as a UK “over commiting” to defend her seas?  I mean they can build too many capital ships which is bad, but other than that I don’t think there is such a thing as over commiting in that specific aspect of the war.  If the UK is absolutly forced into one theater, that’s going to be it right there.

[jsp4563]

@dondoolee:

@kevlar56:

Thanks all for the karma, I feel kinda like I’ve come home!  :-D  Perhaps I wasn’t completely clear on my second point, which is enticing the UK into desperately spending money to smash a German naval build.  The UK economy is based on territories spread all over the map and unless they want to see their IPC income shrink by 1/2 (or more!) they have to have both money to spend and troops in the right places to defend those territories.  To MY thinking (and this is just IMHO), if the UK spends enough to eliminate a Ger. Baltic Fleet it won’t have enough money to build and defend an IC in Ind. or SA and I believe at least one of those is a necessity unless the UK player is willing to be reduced to a minor power by turn 4 or 5. The corollary to that is that Japan (and possibly Italy) will be pulling in big bucks and able to dominate the eastern hemisphere/africa so much that they will dictate the strategic events of the endgame.  A Ger. CV build increases the strategic threat the UK has to face.  The opening for the Allies is a tightrope and the more decisions you force them to make, the greater the decision tree and the greater likelihood that errors will be made. 
Sorry for being so long-winded, but after reading so many threads about KGF’s and ‘unbeatable’ strategies, I’m just trying to bring things down to earth and present pragmatic ideas as to why a Ger. CV build, while perhaps not an “optimal” choice, is still a viable one and worthy of consideration as a strategic option for the German player.
Best regards,
Kevin

I see the point clearly now, and while I still disagree I am going to play test it a few times Sunday it seems interesting in theory.  At least it is a strat that defends germany, pressures russia (due to the primary purpose being transport protection/shuttling 4 troops to a valuable front), and can make the UK think twice about a strat. 
Question though, is there such a thing as a UK “over commiting” to defend her seas?  I mean they can build too many capital ships which is bad, but other than that I don’t think there is such a thing as over commiting in that specific aspect of the war.  If the UK is absolutly forced into one theater, that’s going to be it right there.

When considering a G1 naval build the first thing you need to do is drop the preconcieved notion that you are building a grand fleet to last through out the ages.  You have to assume that the allies aren’t going to sit idly by, and they will take steps to neutralize the threat.  The question then becomes how soon before they can do something about it.  T1 the UK Atlantic fleet has been all but destroyed and the RAF isn’t strong enough to take out the fleet UK1, they will have to buy either ships or planes, most likely planes.  The most they can buy would be 3fgt, 1bmb giving the RAF 5fgt, 2bmb certainly enough to take out the fleet but there will be heavy losses and they have abandoned Africa\Asia to Italy and Japan.  Germany will take Karelia before the UK can take out the fleet, at which point the usefulness of the fleet has diminished anyway.

So was the G1 naval build a waste if it’s sunk UK2?  If you look at it in isolation it certainly seems so, since you only got to use it for 2 rounds, but the overall picture looks very different.  Germany now has all their NO’s and a second IC on Russia’s northern flank.  Italy is free to gobble up Africa and with 20+ IPC and their Med fleet becomes a Major Player.  Japan will dominate the Pacific and Asia.  The US can’t contest it alone.

[bugoo]

Actually as the UK my typical buys to sink german boats are fighters, subs, and destroyers in that order.  Also, i followup with a heavy russian offensive (easy to do since G reinforcements will be so far away).

The problem is if you buy a german AC it does nothing but defend your boats from aircraft.  A simple UK purchase of 1-3 subs forces you to buy destroyers to protect your expensive fleet or watch it get toasted.  Even if you buy more boats on G2 the UK air+boats can usually smash it on turn 2.

If you buy normal boats (dds/bbs) then you dont get the defensive boost from your fighters and it is even more expensive.

My prefered Uk buy on turn 1 vs german boats is 2 subs + 3 figs.  Giving me a total punch of 23 and 8 hits against your fleet and I can still drop a nice navy on turn 2 with carriers.  Or i could go typical and grab 3 bombs and a tranny allowing me to smash italy’s fleet on UK2 if you reinforce your german fleet. (sending 2 inf into persia on R1 to ensure I can grab Trans-Jordan on R2 for an LZ.)

I hate to say it but germany doesn’t have the money or time on G1 to play around.  You need reinforcements against russia.

Now one thing I have played around with for german boats is an IC in france then seeding Italy’s fleet.  Often this allows me to place a carrier and some DDs in SZ 7 rallying with Italy’s fleet around turn 4 to protect france and then empty it of fighting men to push back the russians.  Not saying its a good idea (i need to experiment with it more) but it did seem to work well the couple of times i tried it.

[dondoolee]

@bugoo:

Actually as the UK my typical buys to sink german boats are fighters, subs, and destroyers in that order.  Also, i followup with a heavy russian offensive (easy to do since G reinforcements will be so far away).

The problem is if you buy a german AC it does nothing but defend your boats from aircraft.  A simple UK purchase of 1-3 subs forces you to buy destroyers to protect your expensive fleet or watch it get toasted.  Even if you buy more boats on G2 the UK air+boats can usually smash it on turn 2.

If you buy normal boats (dds/bbs) then you dont get the defensive boost from your fighters and it is even more expensive.

My prefered Uk buy on turn 1 vs german boats is 2 subs + 3 figs.  Giving me a total punch of 23 and 8 hits against your fleet and I can still drop a nice navy on turn 2 with carriers.  Or i could go typical and grab 3 bombs and a tranny allowing me to smash italy’s fleet on UK2 if you reinforce your german fleet. (sending 2 inf into persia on R1 to ensure I can grab Trans-Jordan on R2 for an LZ.)

I hate to say it but germany doesn’t have the money or time on G1 to play around.  You need reinforcements against russia.

Now one thing I have played around with for german boats is an IC in france then seeding Italy’s fleet.  Often this allows me to place a carrier and some DDs in SZ 7 rallying with Italy’s fleet around turn 4 to protect france and then empty it of fighting men to push back the russians.  Not saying its a good idea (i need to experiment with it more) but it did seem to work well the couple of times i tried it.

hell, if germany purchased 1 fully loaded carrier, all you would need is 3 subs why put planes at risk?  that is britain spending 18 of 43 ipc’s to great rid of a very mild 26 IPC (46 if you count the airplanes that would do nothing) threat.  Just one more reason not to go navy on early german turns.  Great post bugoo.

[dondoolee]

Maybe as a joke move, if you get an Italian player who insits on waiting a turn then buying a carrier (which I consider a waste of time) on UK1 you could just do an all sub purchass, then send them towards the Italians.  If you can sink the Italian fleet all you have to do is leave a sub or 2 in it’s waters and it can never build navy again.  I don’t know if that is the best thing one can do, but it’s kind of funny.

[bugoo]

I think the funny part of it all is, the allies are the ones who get the most use outta subs in the atlantic! lol.

[jsp4563]

@bugoo:

Actually as the UK my typical buys to sink german boats are fighters, subs, and destroyers in that order.  Also, i followup with a heavy russian offensive (easy to do since G reinforcements will be so far away).

The problem is if you buy a german AC it does nothing but defend your boats from aircraft.  A simple UK purchase of 1-3 subs forces you to buy destroyers to protect your expensive fleet or watch it get toasted.  Even if you buy more boats on G2 the UK air+boats can usually smash it on turn 2.

If you buy normal boats (dds/bbs) then you dont get the defensive boost from your fighters and it is even more expensive.

My prefered Uk buy on turn 1 vs german boats is 2 subs + 3 figs.  Giving me a total punch of 23 and 8 hits against your fleet and I can still drop a nice navy on turn 2 with carriers.  Or i could go typical and grab 3 bombs and a tranny allowing me to smash italy’s fleet on UK2 if you reinforce your german fleet. (sending 2 inf into persia on R1 to ensure I can grab Trans-Jordan on R2 for an LZ.)

I hate to say it but germany doesn’t have the money or time on G1 to play around.  You need reinforcements against russia.

Now one thing I have played around with for german boats is an IC in france then seeding Italy’s fleet.  Often this allows me to place a carrier and some DDs in SZ 7 rallying with Italy’s fleet around turn 4 to protect france and then empty it of fighting men to push back the russians.  Not saying its a good idea (i need to experiment with it more) but it did seem to work well the couple of times i tried it.

I welcome your purchase of subs, it makes my strategy even more effective, you’v just bought units that will be worthless after you sink the German fleet, as I said earlier, I fully expect the fleet to be sunk, but I gain huge strategic advange by making the allies do so.  As UK what are you doing elsewhere while your buying theses subs and air to take out the German fleet?  Nothing….Thanks, Game over.  Italy and Japan will go unfettered, and the loss of the fleet to Germany is no real setback, they will be entrenched in Karelia and don’t have to worry about their Atlantic front.

[dondoolee]

2 submarines (12IPC’s) have a 52% chance of beating 2 trannies, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, and 2 airplanes.  That is 40IPC’s  that have an over 50% chance on being sunk (not counting fig, obviously) T2 for a 12 IPC purchase.  Even if UK builds a 3rd sub, no way would that build be a net gain for Germany.  I can’t see that as something I would welcome.

Besides, after that, the surviving subs can still be used as part of an attack against the Italian navy, or sent to the pacific or both.  While it may not be a great build for the UK the cost isn’t completley sunk after the initial use of the subs, it’s not like the western axis are going to have any destroyers roaming about (unless you want to build a carrier a tranny and a destroyer, which would be suicidal.)

I am not saying a submarine build is the worlds greatest build, it is only one way to deal with a German navy in an effective manner. Certainly underming Germany’s build (by building just 2/3 cheap subs)  and giving the allies an advantage off such a build is a welcome thing for the Allies in the early part of the game.  Besides, the mere fact that the UK can put a submarine to use is a very funny/ tempting notion.

[bugoo]

What would i have to be doing? I would still be setup to drop a nice navy full of carriers on UK2 and the subs are cheap ‘fodder’ for when I do hit your fleet.  What is Germany doing when they have no real reinforcements against Russia until G3?  Entrenched in Kar I greatly doubt as i’ll land UK figs there to reinforce if I have to to stop a G2 takeover.  Keeping Germany from its 3rd NO is the only way to keep 'em honest.  SZ 7 is the ideal location for subs as they can be moved against Italy with ease.

You see by purchasing subs and figs I force Germany to play to my tune.  They ether dump alot of IPCs into her fleet or it gets sunk on UK2 typically as a good IPC trade for the allies.

[jsp4563]

Excellent posts gentlemen, prehaps there is some use for UK subs after all, I still remain skeptical.  I’m still curious, what is the UK doing elsewhere while plopping these subs in the water?  Have they abandoned Africa and the Far East?

Bourgeoisie Capitalist fighters on the soil of Mother Russia?!  Stalin would have a fit, not to mention it would cost them their NO. :-D

I still think a G1 naval build is a viable strategy.  The alternative is to lose the batltic fleet UK1 with no real cost to the allies.

[bugoo]

Depends on how many boats and which ones i have left as UK vs a baltic fleet.  Typically i’ll sacrifice my transport to grab finland/norway with plane support, or hide my bomber somewhere like persia to trade with, or try to bait G into hitting my boats with there air, it really depends.  Sometimes i’ll just build destroyers and an AC in SZ 6 to blockade the G fleet and kill them at my leisure, as carriers are really bad at attacking.  The big thing is this, UK’s job is to keep Russia alive by costing Germany IPCs.  This can be done by taking there land, killing there units, bombing there factories, or watching them build boats and sinking them.  I always make sure if they sail out of harbor, they will die.

And if you ever have to choose between denying Russia 5 IPCs to deny Germany 7, do it.

Also keep in mind this is from a KGF mindset using LL, i leave Africa and Italy to the US, where it belongs.  To hell with japan they don’t even enter the game till turn 3, usually not till turn 4 aside from taking my money.  By then Germany is loosing ground to Russia, the UK is threating Berlin/France heavily, and Italy has no boats nor NOs with a US fleet in the water.  Then, after japan gets a few factories going will i build a harassment US fleet in the pacific.

[dondoolee]

@Emperor:

Excellent posts gentlemen, prehaps there is some use for UK subs after all, I still remain skeptical.  I’m still curious, what is the UK doing elsewhere while plopping these subs in the water?  Have they abandoned Africa and the Far East?

Bourgeoisie Capitalist fighters on the soil of Mother Russia?!  Stalin would have a fit, not to mention it would cost them their NO. :-D

I still think a G1 naval build is a viable strategy.  The alternative is to lose the batltic fleet UK1 with no real cost to the allies.

I am enjoying this debate as well.
I usually try to avoid UK troops on USSR land (if NO’s are on).  Off the top of my head, I could just build 2/3 subs and sit on the rest of the money (or build a few ground troops) and prepare for a T3 attack on Europe/Afr, which is usually about the time the UK does anything for me anyway.  A factory build may also be an option.  Another radical option (I have no idea how well it would work) would be an Allied T1 all bomber build.  That may be enough bombers to wipe out both fleets and have some bombers left over to do dmg elsewhere.

But as far as more conservative play, I would try to find ways to just ignore the navy (I can still land in Afr/ W. Eur/ Nor) and make sure I had a navy that couldn’t be sunk.  If you built a navy, I could still get a navy started T1 by icceland w/o worrying about getting sunk.  Russia is going to get about two turns to really shore up her forces on Germany, which as an allied player I would find a good thing.

Here is really what is driving me wild though, I have seen people advocate A german carrier, a german tranny with an Italian carrier/fig build, and even some say an extra Italian tranny and an extra German destroyer.  I don’t think the UK has to worry too much about anything with a build like that as Russia can just mop the floor with both Italy and Germany simultaneously with an opening build like that, they may even have enough troops to speed bump Japan a little too.