I have a question about income and capitols.

[fanofbond]

In the game I am currently playing Great Britian has fallen.  Then during the next turn some of Great Britian’s remaining forces took controll of Italy.  My question is does Great Britian collect the money from Italy eventhough Great Britian has no capitol?  Would be great to have an anwser today so we can continue playing. Thanks

[d142]

the rulebook states that when a a capital is under the control of a opponent that player can not collect income or bonus income, however, the rulebook is not totally clear about this issue, my guess would be that the I.P.C. would stay at italy, until one of the following occurs, italy is re-captured by the axis, or the allies re-capture the u.k.
i would wait until there was more insight into this before continuing with he game,
although i could not determine another course of action that would comply with the rules

[Krieghund]

The UK gets the IPCs.  This is the only circumstance under which a power can have any IPCs while its capital is under enemy control.  Of course, the UK still can’t spend the money until it gets its capital back.

[HannibalSW]

This was a great question that I probably would not have considered unless it came up, and great Kreighund could answer!  I say +1 to you both!  Aside from saying that I am not sure how to actually give you guys +1 karma on these boards.

[Krieghund]

You get the power to bestow karma when your post count reaches 100.

[Uberlager]

Seeing as how we are on the subject of capitals, I have a question that came up in my tourney game thread…

If, say, Germany has units in reserve (purchased but not able to be placed) and Germany is captured, what happens to those units?

[Krieghund]

Per the FAQ, Germany loses the units, along with any technology researchers it may have.

[d142]

yeah, the u.k. would capture the I.P.C. and if italy recapture italy before the u.k. re-capture the u.k. italy would re-capture the I.P.C.
if the u.k. re-capture the capital the I.P.C. would be moved to the u.k.

[Krieghund]

@d142:

if italy recapture italy before the u.k. re-capture the u.k. italy would re-capture the I.P.C.

No, it wouldn’t.  Those IPCs would belong to the UK.  You can only take IPCs from a country by taking its capital.  As long as the UK’s capital remains in enemy hands, its IPCs can’t be taken again.

[d142]

@Krieghund:

@d142:

if italy recapture italy before the u.k. re-capture the u.k. italy would re-capture the I.P.C.

No, it wouldn’t.  Those IPCs would belong to the UK.  You can only take IPCs from a country by taking its capital.  As long as the UK’s capital remains in enemy hands, its IPCs can’t be taken again.

where would the u.k. store the I.P.C. with the capital of the u.k. not controlled by the u.k.

[Krieghund]

Various places, I would imagine, but they certainly wouldn’t leave them in Italy.  :-)

[Jennifer]

@Krieghund:

Various places, I would imagine, but they certainly wouldn’t leave them in Italy.   :-)

Agreed.

Sydney, Toronto, Cairo, etc would all be decent treasuries instead of London.

Though, I always imagined all money in the world was in Switzerland and when you took an enemy capitol, you got the PIN to their Swiss Bank Accounts for one day (the next day, they call and change the PIN!)

[d142]

there is no treasury rule for AA50, the rulebook states that when a capital is captured all that players I.P.C. are captured by the attacking player,
if all I.P.C. are captured from a capital, that would suggest that all I.P.C. are stored at the capital,
if the u.k. capital is captured and all I.P.C. forefeited to the attacker, then if the u.k. captures italy,
how can the I.P.C. be stored at a non capital, if the u.k. captured germany the round after germany captured the u.k. where would germany have stored the captured u.k. I.P.C.
would the u.k. player have to declare where the I.P.C. has been stored, or is it a game of hide and seek,
i have read the rulebook several times, and there is no rule that states that I.P.C. can be moved from a capital to a non capital territory

[Krieghund]

For game purposes, it doesn’t really matter where the IPCs are held.  Per page 20 of the rules, IPCs are only transferred when a capital is captured, not when it’s liberated.

[d142]

it does matter because, if the u.k. are completely knocked out of the game, what player claims the captured italy I.P.C.

[Krieghund]

The UK keeps the IPCs.  It doesn’t matter whether it’s “knocked out of the game” or not.  The only way that you can take a country’s IPCs is to capture (not liberate) its capital.  If its capital is already in enemy hands, it must be liberated before it can be captured again, so the country’s IPCs (which it could only have from capturing an enemy capital) are untouchable by anyone until then.

This may or may not make sense from a “realistic” perspective, but that’s the way it works.  If it makes you feel any better, you can justify it by saying that the US is keeping its ally’s IPCs safe.

[d142]

i think that because the the rulebook states that a player can not collect income when a capital has been captured,
that the I.P.C. would be lost to all player’s, the only other option would be to have the I.P.C. stay at italy until either the U.K. has re-captured the u.k. or the italy re-captures italy,
by the way of the u.k. keeping the I.P.C. at a non declared territory, it is unfair because for the axis to re-capture the I.P.C. they would have to capture all of the u.k. territories, and if they capture some u.k. territories, and the u.k. re-capture the u.k. the u.k. would still have the italy I.P.C.
in the interest of fairness, the I.P.C. should be declared to another territory, which could contradict the rules,
should stay at a capital controlled by the u.k. / which in this situation would be germany, or tokyo
or should be lost to all players,
i think that there should be official rule clarification for this, because i do not believe that a player that does not have control of their capital can capture all other capitals, and keep the I.P.C. until they have re-captured their capital,

@Krieghund:

This may or may not make sense from a “realistic” perspective, but that’s the way it works.  If it makes you feel any better, you can justify it by saying that the US is keeping its ally’s IPCs safe.

the rulebook states that a player may not lend I.P.C. to another player,
by means of keeping the I.P.C. safe, may not be a technical lend because the u.s. could not spend that I.P.C.

i.e. if the u.k. get’s knocked out of thae game, and the u.s. keep’s the italy I.P.C. and the u.s. re-captures the u.k.
the u.k. are back in the game, with I.P.C. that should have been lost,

it handicaps the attacking player, in particular germany, because when germany captures the u.k. germany would not have the option to bank money at japan, and therefore if germany is captured at the u.s. turn, germany loses all the I.P.C. that it won at the capture of the u.k.

i do not like this idea of I.P.C. not being reachable by knocking out the capturing player,
in that scenario, if the u.s. has been knocked out, they could bank the I.P.C. off to russia,

this idea of banking would have to have a end point, otherwise the I.P.C. could be passed around from player to player, if the u.s. get’s knocked out, they bank the money to russia, if russia get’s knocked out, they could bank the money back to the u.s.

with no way for the axis to reclaim the I.P.C. the I.P.C. would be there until the u.k. get back in the game

[hakan]

Perhaps a little bit off topic.

No one, except me and my friends, seems to thinks that the rule when a liberated capital falls in enemy hands the very next turn, could be made better. The most obvious example is the differences when Germany liberates an Italian territory or the Capital.

Example1: Germany liberates the Balkans while Rome is occupied. In this case, Germany (axis) collects +3 IPC during Collect Income from the liberated territory, even if the Balkans is re-occupied during the UK turn.

Example2: However, if Germany has liberated the Balkans, and some later turn liberates Rome, then Germany directly hand over all liberated territories and the capital to Italy. Hence, Germany don’t collect any “liberated -Italian-IPC”. However, before the Italian turn, Rome is re-occupied by UK. In this case, Germany (axis) collects 0 IPC from the liberated areas.

This “feels” wrong.  I often don’t liberate Rome, if I am not 100% sure to hold it during the UK turn. We think that it shouldn’t be a penalty to liberate a capital, even if you loose Rome to the UK before the Italian turn. The same rule when it comes to collecting IPC, should be applied for both liberated territories and and liberated capitals. We are probably alone on this planet who have been annoyed by this rule, but if there are anyone else out there in cyberspace that also thinks that this rule could be made a little bit better, this is how we cut the Gordian Knot:

House Rule Liberating territories and Capitals
If you capture a territory that was originally controlled by another member of your side, you “liberate” the territory. You do not take control of it; instead, the original controller regains the territory and its income. Antiaircraft guns or industrial complexes in that territory revert to the original controller of the territory.

If the original controller’s capital is in enemy hands at the end of the turn in which you would otherwise have liberated the territory, you capture the territory, collect income from the newly captured territory, and use any industrial complex there until the original controller’s capital is liberated. You also take ownership of any antiaircraft gun in that territory.

When a capital is “liberated”, the liberator still collect income from liberated territories and the newly liberated capital. However, this money is separated from the rest of the income.

If the capital remain liberated until the original controller’s turn, then revert ownership to the original owner of the capital. Territories and industrial complexes that are controlled by the newly liberated capital’s owner but are in the hands of friendly powers also revert ownership. Antiaircraft guns outside the newly liberated capital territory remain under their pre-liberation ownership. The  re-liberator must also transfer the previous turn’s income from liberated territories and capital. This money may be used directly by the original controller for Research and/or Purchase Units.

However, if the capital is “re-occupied” by the enemy before the liberated country’s turn, then the preliberator keep control over non-occupied territories. The pre-liberator also incorporate the collected money with the rest of his income. (Note that this money is not transferred to the occupant.)

Edit: I was typing a little bit to fast… The example became complete wrong!!  :-)

[Krieghund]

@d142:

i think that because the the rulebook states that a player can not collect income when a capital has been captured,
that the I.P.C. would be lost to all player’s

Captured IPCs are not “income from any territories he or she still controls”, so that rule doesn’t apply here.

[fanofbond]

well in our game i think we will just do the transfer to another victory city thing.  We have postponned the game untill this misunderstanding in the rules is cleared up.  The transfer to another victory city, to me, sounds the best and most realistic. For me though I like the idea that the money stays with italy the territory(italy had 70 IPC at that point and im both playing as italy and germany).