Subs Attack Vs trannies escorted by air only…

[Perry]

This is the situation…

Defender has 1 CV 2 ftr 1 trn
Attacker has 3 SS, 2 ftr

Rd1, kills the CV for the defender… No losses for the attacker.

The attacker presses on for a Round 2.

The question:
Will the SS:s be eligible to roll their attack on Round2? (and thus kill the tranny, regardless of wheter the attacker wins the battle or not)

[a44bigdog]

I do not see a specific mention of this. The closest is the sidebar on page 19 of the rulebook.
I would see no reason why the subs could not fire at the transports they are a valid target for the subs. The attacking planes would have to kill the defending planes first before targeting the transport.

[Jennifer]

I believe you need to capture the sea zone before you can kill any defending transports.

[kendric]

Wasn’t the rule that transports have to be hit last. Well if air is an illegal target for a sub, then the last target is the transport. So the sub should hit the transports. Its then up to enemy air to kill the sub before it kills all the transports one at a time.

[Krieghund]

@a44bigdog:

I do not see a specific mention of this. The closest is the sidebar on page 19 of the rulebook.
I would see no reason why the subs could not fire at the transports they are a valid target for the subs. The attacking planes would have to kill the defending planes first before targeting the transport.

Correct.

@Cmdr:

I believe you need to capture the sea zone before you can kill any defending transports.

Not really.

@kendric:

Wasn’t the rule that transports have to be hit last. Well if air is an illegal target for a sub, then the last target is the transport. So the sub should hit the transports. Its then up to enemy air to kill the sub before it kills all the transports one at a time.

Correct, except that the defending fighters can’t hit the subs because there’s no defending destroyer.

The bottom line is that the transports are toast and the subs are safe.  The only fighting left is between the fighters.

Here’s the thing about the defenseless transport rule:  Imagine that the transports are rolling dice just like everything else, only they need a zero to hit.  Since there are no zeroes on the dice, they will never hit.  Any battle involving transports plays out like any other battle, with two exceptions.  One is that the transports may only be taken as a casualty when there is no other choice.  The other is that when it gets to the point where the only dice being rolled on one side need a zero to hit and dice that can hit are still being rolled on the other side, and it’s only a matter of time before the transports are destroyed, you can stop rolling dice and remove the transports.  The sole point of the rule is to keep you from rolling endless dice until you kill all the transports.

Technically, in the example above the fighters will continue to roll back and forth until one or both side’s fighters are gone.  In the meantime, the subs will continue to roll and remove a transport every time they hit.  If there are still transports remaining when the fighters are done, they will be automatically removed, since the subs can keep rolling until the end of time until the transports are destroyed.

[runyan99]

@Krieghund:

Correct, except that the defending fighters can’t hit the subs because there’s no defending destroyer.

The rulebook is unclear about subs and defending air. The destroyer rules say that destroyers allow air units to attack subs. It isn’t clear what the rules are for defending air, as opposed to attacking.

For instance, what is the procedure if a sub attacks a carrier with two fighters?

[a44bigdog]

If there are no destroyers present then it is just the sub vs the carrier. If there is a destroyer present the aircraft may then fire at the sub.

[Count_Zeppelin]

The submersible rule says that anytime a a submarine would otherwise roll a die to attack or defend, it can submerge instead. This removes it from combat - it can no longer attack or take hits in that combat. Whenever a round of combat starts and a submarine is in combat with only aircraft, it can submerge (before aircraft fire).

This clearly means, that subs cannot dive before the combat round because a transport is left. Also, the planes may fire on the subs / the subs may take the hits.

The chosen last rule says that transports may only be chosen as a casualty if there are no other eligible units. Normally, this will occur when only transports are left, but it may also occur under other circumstances. For example, fighters attacking transports and submerged submarines will hit the transports because they cannot hit the submarines.

As in this case the submarines cannot hit the fighters, as long as they do not submerge, they kill the transports.

[Krieghund]

@runyan99:

The rulebook is unclear about subs and defending air. The destroyer rules say that destroyers allow air units to attack subs. It isn’t clear what the rules are for defending air, as opposed to attacking.

For instance, what is the procedure if a sub attacks a carrier with two fighters?

@Count_Zeppelin:

The submersible rule says that anytime a a submarine would otherwise roll a die to attack or defend, it can submerge instead. This removes it from combat - it can no longer attack or take hits in that combat. Whenever a round of combat starts and a submarine is in combat with only aircraft, it can submerge (before aircraft fire).

This clearly means, that subs cannot dive before the combat round because a transport is left. Also, the planes may fire on the subs / the subs may take the hits.

There must be a friendly destroyer present in order for air units to hit subs, and only an enemy destroyer will keep a sub from submerging.  See the FAQ.

[Count_Zeppelin]

Additionally, your aircraft may hit enemy submarines if you have a destroyer on the battle board."

I’m sorry, but this line from the FAQ is nonsense!

There is no single line in the Rulebook that says, that aircraft can’t attack subs that aren’t submerged.

Of course aircraft can hit submarines if a destroyer is present, as they no longer can submerge.
But in the instance that subs attack carriers, the fighters may shoot back as long as the subs remain surfaced.

[Krieghund]

@Count_Zeppelin:

Additionally, your aircraft may hit enemy submarines if you have a destroyer on the battle board."

I’m sorry, but this line from the FAQ is nonsense!

There is no single line in the Rulebook that says, that aircraft can’t attack subs that aren’t submerged.

That was an omission from the rulebook, hence the FAQ entries.

[Count_Zeppelin]

Q. On page 29 it says that your aircraft may hit enemy submarines if you have a destroyer in the sea zone, but it doesn’t say anywhere in the rules that aircraft can’t hit submarines without a destroyer present. Do you always need a destroyer in a battle in order for your air units to hit enemy subs?
A. Yes. Air units can only hit subs if there is a friendly destroyer on the battle board, otherwise hits made by air units must be applied to units other than submarines. If you’re the attacker, destroyers in the same sea zone belonging to your ally don’t count, since they’re not involved in the battle.

THX Kriegshund, you are right!

I apologize to all readers of my previous posts for having answered without this important information.

In this case the subs would sink the transport without interference of the fighters.