Japan Basic Strategies, Concepts and Ideas

[Jennifer]

Maybe it was a discussion from before the official release.  I do remember it being talked about that submarines were unable to hit Capitol Ships in Anniversary.

Anyway, let’s recap submarines

1)  They cost 6 IPC, almost as much as a destroyer.
2)  They no longer can act like a blocking unit stopping the enemy from passing through a sea zone without first engaging the submarine and clearing the zone.
3)  They no longer can lock transports preventing them from loading and unloading.
4)  They defend at 1, that was not even overly impressive when it was transports defending at 1, but at least when the transports could defend at 1, they could also hit airplanes!  Submarines can’t even do that!
5)  If you have 30 Submarines you can be attacked by 1 Destroyer and 100 Heavy Bombers.  If so, you can lose all 30 submarines and get 1 hit MAXIMUM, since you cannot hit the aircraft, you can only sink the destroyer.  Cost: 180 IPC for the submarines, 8 IPC for the Destroyer.
6)  Submarines do have some uses, I would at least keep one or two in any sizable fleet since you can use them to attack and they can slip through to harass enemy shipping if the enemy is not careful.

In my honest opinion, anything more than 1 or 2 submarines in MOST games is overkill on Subs.  You’re much better off with Destroyers that can defend as well as attack.  Honestly, that’s what the destroyer is in this game, the Destroyer in AA50 is the Submarine from Revised and Classic, the go to, main, naval fodder piece.  Submarines are gambit units used for those off chance scenarios where they can be effective.

For instance, if the enemy leaves a carrier and fighters in a sea zone it cannot land in, a submarine could be effective. (Attacker at 2, defender at 2, fighters cannot defend and the hit has to be applied to the carrier.)

Or when you can slip past the enemy navy to go at a transport train forcing the enemy to pull units back to defend or build new ones.

(I used ridiculously large number on purpose, I know odds are it would be 5 or 6 submarines, 1 destroyer and half a dozen planes and bombers most of the time, but that doesn’t really demonstrate the point hard enough!)

[Uncle_Joe]

Interesting.

Unless I’m missing it, that frood.com doenst have a combat calculator for A&A50 yet, right? I’d be REALLY interested to see the way subs stack up in combat in those sims.

Apart from that, I can only look at it from a quick analytical point of view. And to me, it appears that subs can be terrifying if used properly. The lack of ability to hit planes is not necessarily a disadvantage IMO. It means that once the DDs are gone, the next thing on the list has a minimum IPC cost of 12 and it goes up from there.

Subs simply threaten surface fleets. And that makes them potent IMO. Just avoid DDs within 2 spaces and you can go wherever you want. Stray DDs are easily brought down by BBs or airpower. I just really think that ability to avoid airpower (both attacking and being attacked) cannot be overstated. But I guess YMMV :)

[Jennifer]

Actually, once defending submarines are gone then defending destroyers are gone, you can damage battleships and then you can hit cruisers, assuming you survive that long, you probably wont.

Generally speaking, I have yet to be “terrified” of a submarine in AA50.  I’ve laughed, I’ve laughed so hard I cried, I giggled to the point of a guffaw at them, but I’ve not been terrified!

I’ll point out:

10,000 Submarines vs 1 Destroyer and 4,999 Bombers (almost same cost) should result with:

3,333 hits from the attacker
1 hit from the defender

Cost to the attacker: 8 IPC
Cost to the defender: 19,998 IPC

Still like your submarines?

[Woodstock]

@Cmdr:

Actually, once defending submarines are gone then defending destroyers are gone, you can damage battleships and then you can hit cruisers, assuming you survive that long, you probably wont.

Generally speaking, I have yet to be “terrified” of a submarine in AA50.  I’ve laughed, I’ve laughed so hard I cried, I giggled to the point of a guffaw at them, but I’ve not been terrified!

I’ll point out:

10,000 Submarines vs 1 Destroyer and 4,999 Bombers (almost same cost) should result with:

3,333 hits from the attacker
1 hit from the defender

Cost to the attacker: 8 IPC
Cost to the defender: 19,998 IPC

Still like your submarines?

Even though I agree with you Jen, you do have to take in consideration that a smart player would watch out for DD’s. (would that be a contradictio in terminis? “A smart player buying 10k subs…” )
If there would be no DD (because a smart one would take it out, or stay out of it’s range), you could attack 2500 AV’s, all loaded with fighters (5000).

Those 5k fighters are useless, and with your surprise kill you could get 3300 kills (subs hit at 2 right?). The vessels that you actually kill, don’t get to fight back.

More convenient is that those 5000 fighters will go down as well, as there is no ground underneath their feet…

Now thát could make a sub useful…
And with only 6 or 7 IPC, every 2 subs = 1 CV.

[DarthMaximus]

It depends on the number of subs but DDs alone do not deter an attack.

Consider this:

Attacker: 6 subs
Defense:  2 dd, 2 ac, 4 ftrs (def has no island to land on)

Round 1 - 2 hits to 4 hits

Round 2 - 2 subs vs. 2 ac, 4 ftrs?

Now the ftrs can’t shoot back? 
and it is essentally 2 subs vs. 2 ac.  Not a bad battle there.

Or did the Def lose an AC the previous turn?  If that is the case you can retreat and not only sink an AC but down two ftrs for free.

Granted this is a bit simplistic but assuming you can get the subs in range you might be able to create some OOL problems for your opponent.

If you expect large scale naval battles (Jap vs. US).  It is nice to buy some cheap fodder (4 subs for 24) assuming you already have your heavy hitters.  Even though they defend at 1, sometimes you just need the numbers, esp when you have 1-2 dd and a couple loaded ACs.  IMO they make sense for the US if you are going to be aggressive in the Pac, since they are a nice cheap attacking unit.
Why spend 8, when 6 will do?
If you are agressive, at some point you need to sink Japan’s 3 ACs, 1 BB plus whatever else they buy, and subs attack just as well as DDs so you’ll probably want to go with cheapness and numbers.

[DarthMaximus]

This was my first turn as Japan in my latest game.  I won all the battles, but lost the DD at Pearl and only a few inf overall.  It went really well.

Buy 2 trns, 1 inf.

Attack:

Bor - mt vs. 1 inf (car via trn)
Sum - mt vs. 2 inf (car via trn)
Sz 53 - bb vs. dd (sz 51), 2 ftrs (sz 57)
Sz 56 - trn, dd vs. 2 ftrs (sz 57)
Sz 35 - trn, dd vs. 2 ftrs (sz 61)
Yun - 1 inf, 1 ftr vs. 3 inf (fic), 2 ftrs (man, for)
Sui - 1 inf vs. 3 inf (man)
Hup - 1 inf vs. 3 inf (kia)
Kwa - 1 inf vs. 1 inf, 1 rt (sz 61), 1 ca (sz 61)
Sz 50 - trn, dd vs. 1 ftr (jap), 1 bb (sz 61) [1 trn with 2 inf from sz 61, 1 trn with 1 inf oki, 1 arm jap] - ftr will land on ac moving from sz 57 to 60 if needed
Phil - 2 inf vs. 3 inf, 1 arm (sz 61, oki, jap)

[Jennifer]

Woodstock:

But if my DD prevents your submarines from getting within 2 sea zones of my fleet for fear of being obliterated by my air power, what good are your submarines?

Darth:

I believe a rather intelligent player wouldn’t get into that situation unless it was completely unavoidable.  Odds are if you have 6 submarines, your opponent will probably have 3 destroyers, 2 Cruisers, Aircraft Carrier, 2 Fighters and 2 IPC left over.  (Just taking the same cash money for a more realistically balanced navy.)

Notice how the submarines are pretty much useless attacking this fleet and how they can be easily crushed by the fleet if they have to go on the defense.

Thing is, guys, submarines are so easily pushed aside and negated they really serve no purpose anymore.  Perhaps if we gave them the ability to block naval movement back they’d have at least the function of cheap fodder to slow the enemy.

[Uncle_Joe]

I’ll point out:

10,000 Submarines vs 1 Destroyer and 4,999 Bombers (almost same cost) should result with:

3,333 hits from the attacker
1 hit from the defender

Cost to the attacker: 8 IPC
Cost to the defender: 19,998 IPC

Honestly that argument holds no water. Thats like saying AA guns are useless because if your opponent brings only tanks and infantry they cant do anything (and the AA guns are CAPTURED unlike the sub).

Subs create opportunities that DDs cannot. Its that simple. They dont replace DDs, they fulfill a different (and still highly useful) purpose. IMO, CVs and BBs are far better combatants than DDs. Given my druthers, I’d build mostly BBs and CVs with DDs only for screening. But the presence of subs forces DD builds…and they are cheaper. If Player A has a few CVs/BBs and DDs and player B attacks with equal value of CVs/BBs and Subs, player B should have a pretty significant advantage in the combat.

In the end, I guess time will tell if subs end up in the scrapyard, but at this point I’m seeing entirely too much success with them to dismiss them out of hand.

[Jennifer]

You can make some pretty neat houses from submarines using them like matchsticks!  Outside of that, they serve little or no purpose.  (they do work as toothpicks though!)

Honestly, an analogy to an AA Gun is not really realistic.  You start with AA Guns.  Japan is not starting with Submarines and Germany’s losing all of hers in the first round.  America might have one for a while, but outside of that, you have to specifically start buying them en masse in order to do any of the combats I’ve seen proposed.

Meanwhile, do you honestly think your opponent is going to see you investing heavily into submarines and buy battleships? Of course not!  She’s going to buy up a couple of destroyers and a load of fighters and bombers (which, btw, can actually do other things if your sub commanders are smart and stay WAY THE HELL AWAY FROM THE ENEMY AIR FORCE.)

At least if you invest the added couple of IPC into your fleet to make those submarines destroyers you have double the defense and cannot fall prey to enemy air force without the ability to defend yourself.

[kendric]

Maybe just use them for pacific island sailing. If the japanese are keeping multiple fighters
bombers out in their islands which are not under invasion threat, then they are not on the mainland helping. When the DD comes to stop you from harassing his transports, if it comes alone, it has to come towards you and thus you will be the one who gets to attack. If he sends more then 1 DD then you just diverted a lot for only 6 bucks and you can run away and then either he follows in which case you wasted more of its time or if he goes back you go back. Basically use them to make it more work to get all those infantry off the various pacific islands that usually get taken to the mainland. Every sub that makes a DD chase it just bought 2 IPCs right? Just dont let them attack first. Make the first move and they have to come to you

[Jennifer]

is a good idea, Kendric.

But the one submarine you have with America at the start is enough for that.  Maybe a second one.

[a44bigdog]

I thought this was the '41 section. The US has no subs in 41 and the Japanese have to take all those islands in 41. This isn’t revised either and with the kind of money Japan makes I see no pressing need to go fetch all those infantry like revised.

[Uncle_Joe]

Ok, lets try a different tack. You tout the 1 DD and 500 Bombers or whatever vs 1000 Subs. Obviously thats completely silly. But at the very least if a plane is attacking a sub (AND you’ve commited a DD), then thats one more place where that plane is NOT. And in many cases that is a completely fine investment of IPCs as America. If I can keep Japanese planes and CVs floating around the Pacific on ASW, then they arent bothering the Russians or the Chinese or the Brits. You are tieing up a DD and prolly 2 Fighters and likely the CV to base them on to kill a sub that is cheap and easily replaced. If you want to commit bombers, even better. Time can be as big of a resource in A&A than IPCs are IMO.

In any case, until you’ve seen subs well handled, I guess you’ll continue to dismiss them as useless. Thats fine, but I believe you are selling yourself really short on the Pacific tactics.

[a44bigdog]

Trust me Jenn well knows the value of subs in OTHER versions of A&A. I use them myself sometimes in the PTO in Revised, however in THIS incarnation of A&A they are nearly worthless.

[Jennifer]

In Classic, Revised and Enhanced, the Submarine is an invaluable tool of any naval combat.

In Anniversary, they are a joke at best, a horrible waste of manufacturing time at the Hasbro plants at worse.

I used 10,000 submarines and 1 destroyer with 4,999 bombers (equivalent cost) for a reason.  It demonstrates just how bad the submarine is.  It’s akin to running a simulator over 10,000 identical battles to see if this one battle should go your way or not (like when you use Frood to find out the probably results.)

However, in this case, it is very simple to see that any major submarine investment is going to end up costing you a lot more than your opponent will lose going with a couple of destroyers and a large air investment.

You’ve mentioned that you can just keep your submarines out of range of your opponents destroyers.  That’s great!  But what, exactly, are your submarines doing then?  They are not helping you win the war, they’re too busy running away! (Watch the movie Das Boot, that submarine did more for Germany in that movie than any submarine in Anniversary will likely do for you in the end.)

If you don’t run away, then your opponent can easily swoop in with a destroyer and a whole bunch of planes to sink a large number of your submarines for very minimal cost to himself. (Sure, if you have enough submarines he may only get one round, but in that one round he can still sink 1 submarine for every 2 aircraft attacking on average, maybe more once you factor in bombers and/or technologies.  That group of submarines, no matter how many there are, can only sink the destroyer, you cannot sink more than that.)

All I am saying is, if you have a choice between submarines and anything else, including extra AA Guns, you may want to seriously consider the “anything else.”  (Though, perhaps the submarine might be better than an extra AA Gun…they cost the same, but I can see a situation where the gun would be slightly worse than the submarine.)

[Uncle_Joe]

I used 10,000 submarines and 1 destroyer with 4,999 bombers (equivalent cost) for a reason.  It demonstrates just how bad the submarine is.  It’s akin to running a simulator over 10,000 identical battles to see if this one battle should go your way or not (like when you use Frood to find out the probably results.)

And its still an inane argument and very much like the AA gun vs Tanks. If you insist on using something incorrectly, expect to get poor results. I bet you could send 5000 TRs against 1 sub and I bet you are gonna lose. Does that mean TRs are useless? Ditto for CVs…Buy all CVs and aircraft and I’ll put them against equal IPC of subs…hell, you can even attack and I’ll defend with ‘worthless subs’ and still win…CVs and planes are useless? Come on…

If you have valid analysis I’d love to hear it, but making ridiculous comparisons and examples does exactly zero to promote a case.

[Heavy Deed]

In the games I play,subs serve a valuable purpose tactically,at least for Japan and the US. I usually commit the US to attacking Japan and re-capturing the island chains. This forces Japan to fight for the economically vital islands in the SW Pac. The subs lurk around the in ones and twos,trying to stay outside the range of any destroyers and looking for a chance to slip through the islands and attack unprotected ships,mainly transports and carriers of course. They are also bait. The layout of the islands and the way they are connected offers a lot of possibilities to maneuver. To just say they are valueless is short-sighted.

[bugoo]

I don’t think anyone is saying “just build all subs” I think people are saying “build a sub or two a turn, you never know when they can get in a good kill and if not, hey fodder and attack on a 2 isnt bad for 6 IPC”.

So i think everyone agrees that, just building subs=dumb, subs as part of a fleet=probably good idea.  Or i could have misread everything as its 3 AM.

[Jennifer]

Actually, Bugoo, they are saying build primarily nothing but submarines and let your surviving surface vessels carry the rest of the load.

My argument is that I’ll kill any kind of fleet designed that way in this game.  It doesn’t have a chance.  Air Power trumps navies now and submarines are absolutely worthless both against air power and against naval forces when they are attacked.

One person had a valid way to keep their submarines alive, RUN AWAY!  Which, coincidentally, also happens to completely negate them as a fighting force and they can be ignored.

Look, I’m not saying to have a fleet with NO SUBMARINES.  I can see utility in having like 1, maybe 2 and on the extreme end, 3 (proportional to fleet size, of course.)  I’m just saying there are way better uses for that money!

I feel the same way with Battleships.  I’m not saying you should never buy one, but I also think there are better uses for that money.

My honest opinion, if you have more submarines than battleships, you probably screwed up your builds.  A properly built fleet should look similar to this, IMHO (In my honest opinion):

1-Battleship
2-Aircraft Carriers
4-Fighters
3-Cruisers (for bombardments)
6 to 12- Destroyers (your main trading unit, these can be used like submarines were used before, hence why there are so many)
1 to 2-Submarines
2-Transports
2-Infantry
1-Artillery
1-Armor
1 to 3-Bombers

Notice, there are submarines, just not as the main unit.  They’re only present to take advantage of sloppy play by your opponent, not as any main combat unit and definitely not as any kind of fodder piece!

[Uncle_Joe]

Out of curiosity, how long do your games tend to run (in turns)?

It sounds like you are used to more of a ‘build up’ and ‘stand off’ than I’ve seen in my games (so far at least). If you have the resources and time to pile that much stuff into a fleet to protect a few TRs then we are playing in completely different realms. ;)