Responses to anti-japan opening

[eumaies]

Hey folks,

I’ve been winning an inordinate amount of games using this opening on the asian front, so curious to debate best counters to it (in case I face it :).  Assume no bid for the japanese (thus either no bidding in the game, or a small bid to germany - basically unrelated to the discussion).

Russia ensures 3 tanks in caucausus at end of round 1 and 1 fighter landed in kazakh, 1 in caucausus.  Russia moves 6 infantry to buryatia and 2 infantry behind them in whatever that territory is called north of buryatia.

UK does whatever seems best in the atlantic, but ends up with:

1. bomber in kazakh, if possible 1 surviving fighter from atlantic landed in w. russia or similar.
2. 1 fighter in buryatia with the 6 russian infantry (after helping in sz59)
3. 1 carrier and destroyer in SZ 59 (after helping fighter to minimize chance of loss there)
4. 1 transport adjacent to french indo china burma (blocking the battleship from SZ59)
5. 1 transport on bottom right of australia (unmoved, but having transported 1 inf from n. zealand to make 4 in australia)
6. 4 infantry and an ipc in india, 1 infantry in persia, 1 infantry in whatever’s north of s. africa.  (germany retains egypt)
7. russia moves 3 infantry into sinkiang
8. other uk builds situational.

What would the ideal detailed japanese response be and why?  I realize the simplest response might be “this is why japan/germany need bidding,” but let’s at least assume a small ipc bid on japan’s side at best.

[AxisOfEvil]

@eumaies:

Hey folks,

I’ve been winning an inordinate amount of games using this opening on the asian front, so curious to debate best counters to it (in case I face it :).  Assume no bid for the japanese (thus either no bidding in the game, or a small bid to germany - basically unrelated to the discussion).

Russia ensures 3 tanks in caucausus at end of round 1 and 1 fighter landed in kazakh, 1 in caucausus.  Russia moves 6 infantry to buryatia and 2 infantry behind them in whatever that territory is called north of buryatia.

UK does whatever seems best in the atlantic, but ends up with:

1. bomber in kazakh, if possible 1 surviving fighter from atlantic landed in w. russia or similar.
2. 1 fighter in buryatia with the 6 russian infantry (after helping in sz59)
3. 1 carrier and destroyer in SZ 59 (after helping fighter to minimize chance of loss there)
4. 1 transport adjacent to french indo china burma (blocking the battleship from SZ59)
5. 1 transport on bottom right of australia (unmoved, but having transported 1 inf from n. zealand to make 4 in australia)
6. 4 infantry and an ipc in india, 1 infantry in persia, 1 infantry in whatever’s north of s. africa.  (germany retains egypt)
7. russia moves 3 infantry into sinkiang
8. other uk builds situational.

What would the ideal detailed japanese response be and why?  I realize the simplest response might be “this is why japan/germany need bidding,” but let’s at least assume a small ipc bid on japan’s side at best.

well you want a japan counter?  First off, i have seen a russian bury stack with 2 fighters, 1 russian and 1 British. Japan chooses not to engage the US at pearl. japan pours all it can into bury in order to kill red inf and the plane. Japan also kill China. Did you say UK bought an indian IC? Well r1, FIC is empty, so UK will take it r2. It ok, the russian inf was worth it. Now japans focuses everything at the Indian IC. If the usa focuses in the pacific, then japan is going to be bottled up. Not much you can do to counter. Do you use this opening as a full fledged KJF?

But regardless if you KJF with this opening or not, there doesnt necessarily have to be a great counter for it by Japan. As you now have a beast in Germany. Germany has tanks in Egypt after r1, so with no opposition, they have blitzed thru africa and soon are producing at 50+. The terr above bury is yakut. And u have 2 red inf and 3 red tanks there. So in all, u have removed 8 inf and 3 tanks from the german front. Any decent german player will make BIG gains on the Eastern Front in this case. And cauc can fall pretty quickly.

[eumaies]

no, it’s not a full fledged KJF.  that would require boats, and i wouldn’t commit to that unless i was dominating.  but it can neuter japan pretty well.

you misread about yakut.  I have 0 tanks there. just 2 infantry.  Russia is not over-committing to this strat.

africa can be dealt with in some games (via n. africa flt merge & dropoff), or in others can be ignored initially.  German economy is no joke but neither is japanese getting on a role, so it’s a tradeoff.  But back to the japan front…

as for the counter, that is a very expensive kill of buryatia and i wouldn’t mind if you did it (not that it’s a bad move).  Not expensive in troops lost (~4 japanese ground forces on average) but in opportunity cost.  Follow-up is likely us build IC in sinkiang, russia takes china.  More importantly, massive british and american fleet is in the pacific with two carriers and 3 fighters, potentially massed in a single location.  Specify ship movements and I’ll specify in return…

[Jennifer]

Traditionally, a KJF is preceded by Russia landing 2 Fighters in Kazakh and moving 1 tank to Yakut.  This gives them the potential to hit Manchuria with 6 Infantry, Armor, 2 Fighters, which is pretty darn significant, IMHO.

Japan’s best bet, IMHO, if they suspect a KJF has started, is to work on getting units only from Japan and islands close to Japan (Philippines, Wake, Okinawa) that can be recovered without leaving the sea zone.

Your best strength here is to hope the allies screw up.  Maybe England did a SZ 30 unification and went for E. Indies afterwards.  Now you can lay into him with everything you have (which should be at least 6 fighters, bomber, 2 battleships, 2 carriers and, if you bought a submarine round 1, that too.  Note, if they hit E. Indies not Borneo, then your aircraft will have to do the work, so plan on getting some fighters this round!)  Still, the British fleet can be chopped up with fighters/bombers only (removing them from any action in Asia though).

But what do you do if the allies unify in SZ 45?  Well, at least on the plus side, it’s SZ 45, not up near Alaska where they can cause SERIOUS damage to you by landing units in Russia!

In this case you have two options:

1)  Try to out build the allies.  (IMHO, this is NOT gunna happen!)
2)  Try to take out Russia before the allies get there while building a little navy each round with Japan to prevent the allies from getting too close to you.)

[Nix]

if you want to Hurt japan you should do the following:

6 inf in buryatia
2 arm in yakut

sink trn in sz59

Hit FIC with 3 inf 1 fig

Consolidate UK carier, 2 trn and 1 sub in SZ30

land uk bomber in novosibirsk.

Counterstrike Pearl with US if it´s viable.

This will force japan to do a lot of really hard chhoices, and if everythng fails allies can continue killing Germany with more or less 0 lost time.

[eumaies]

yeah, you can certainly go harder against japan.  but for my money, i like a less risky balanced russian front.

2 fighters in kazakh is good for round 1, but then if you don’t use them in asia and you want to use them in europe anywhere other than ukraine, then for round 2 russia can’t land either fighter in kazakh.  So i’m playing for the long run russian options on both fronts.

tanks i would love to bring, but then i can’t gurantee the win in ukraine, and so bringing 1 into yakut makes for a better japan kill, but reduces odds of winning the game due to potential for loss against germany.

nix, with regards to the other stuff, trn in sz 59 demands more than just a destoyer, IMO.  16% of the time you die without killing it and then you’ve practically lost the game with that opening.  and the indo-china attack is only 50/50 successful.  Obviously you don’t have to win it, but i find if it goes badly it can go badly without you causing any damage.  And anyway making risky moves on turn 1 implies i think i need to take risks cuz i’m behind, in my mind.

[Nix]

but then i can’t gurantee the win in ukraine

Never do ukraine…  exposed russia hardware in g1, imho very bad for Russia.

I feel you can live with the results of a failure and still win te game, but it´s different how we all roll.

[AxisOfEvil]

@Nix:

but then i can’t gurantee the win in ukraine

Never do ukraine…  exposed russia hardware in g1, imho very bad for Russia.

I feel you can live with the results of a failure and still win te game, but it´s different how we all roll.

In dice games, i have been avoiding ukr attack r1 more and more. ll is a different story.

[eumaies]

I don’t like the options leaving ukraine gives germany.  They have six fighters for the whole game which is very flexible, and/or they can mass forces in ways that russia can’t attack, and they can land fighters in ukraine if and when they’re ready.  Killing belorussia is a valid alternative, though, which mitigates some of that.

[Jennifer]

Ukraine is usually a good bet because it limits what can attack Caucasus and takes out a Gerry Fighter.

However, keep in mind, i also advocate hitting W. Russia, Ukraine AND Norway to get TWO German fighters. (And sometimes I go nuts and hit FIC as well to get a Japanese one!)