Canada is a minor power because its military operation is minor overall and heavily dependent on US and UK. Canada’s only major operation in Asia was reinforcing Hong Kong, being an auxiliary force in Africa and committed in Europe so they were pretty centered in the conflict.
Four Power Game
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Musing on the 1941 scenario consider the possibility that Hitler might not have attacked Russia.
Powers:
1. Germany/Italy (start at war with UK)
2. UK (at war with Germany/Italy); USA (neutral but at war when (a) attacked or (b) if UK is captured?
3. USSR
4. JapanStart in say Spring 1941 BEFORE the German shift of units to the Eastern Front. Germany can continue the main effort in the West/Mediterranean, and leave Russia for later.
Rule: Stalin’s Great Pal.
Stalin refused to believe that Hitler would invade, even when an overwhelming number of intelligence reports told him about the German build-up. Therefore:
USSR units may not attack German units/territory until 2 turns after Germany attacks USSR.Otherwise consider G/I and USSR to be LOOSLY allied; they may overfly/pass through/share sea zones but not leave units on each other’s territory.
Any of the four powers may attack any other, there are no limits (so no USSR/Japan NAP).
Some simple rules are needed for US entry; if it only becomes at war if attacked the others will leave it alone…
Considerations:
If Germany had finished off Britain before turning east would USA have helped USSR?
If Hitler hadn’t declared war on USA would Rooseveldt have found a justification to get fully involved against Germany and Italy?
Or, would he have stepped up aid for Britain including US units shipped to Europe without being officially at war?
We might have alternative histories where Germany and Russia carve up the British Empire, while USA goes full-on against Japan early before confronting the Soviets in Asia, while guarding against a German landing on the east coast.
It seems something of a waste to have an official 1941 scenario without these possibilities, especially since the absence of a Japanese/Soviet NAP means that even this scenario is likely to see the same old strategies play out.
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what about Rio De Oro? we need special rules for the focal point of WW2.
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:lol: Good one IL! Made me LOL! Good to see you back Flashman. Haven’t heard from you in awhile.
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I think we need historical incentives so that things are likely to play out the way they did, but certainly not necessarily:
USSR gets +5 IPC a round while on the Axis side. This is an incentive for Germany/Italy to attack (plus somewhat realistic, as Hitler invaded knowing that if he waited, USSR would only be more powerful).
If Germany invades the USSR before the USSR invades Germany, the USSR is unable to attack German forces on its next turn.
When combat takes place in the United Kingdom or American forces are attacked, America joins the war.
Japan has a victory point win condition similar to pacific. However, Japan does not obtain victory points until America has entered the war.
The first time Japan attacks America, all American naval units defend at 1. However, America receives a Purchase Units and Place Units phase before combat is resolved (to prevent Japan from walking into western USA).
All USSR infantry and artillery defend at 3 against Japanese units in red territory.
The game ends when a power fulfills victory conditions. That power wins. All conquest-based conditions require the power to retain control of the area conquered for a full round. Victory conditions are as follows (2 per power):
Germany/Italy:
Victory if Moscow is under German/Italian control.
Victory if the United Kingdom is under German/Italian control.Japan:
Victory if 24 victory points are reached.
Victory if Hawaii, Australia, and India are all under Japanese control.Axis USSR:
Victory if the United Kingdom is under USSR control.Allied USSR:
Victory if Berlin is under USSR control.USSR:
Victory if Russia retains all original red territories, plus at least 15 IPC of other territory.Western Allies:
Victory if Berlin, Paris, Rome, and Moscow are under Allied control.
Victory if Tokyo is under Allied control or Japan fails to collect victory points on its turn.Tie:
If USSR and the Western Allies each fulfill their victory condition at the same time, whichever side has more IPC income is considered to have the advantage in the cold war, and therefore is the ultimate victor. -
here’s the part i like in these rules:
I think we need historical incentives so that things are likely to play out the way they did, but certainly not necessarily:
USSR gets +5 IPC a round while on the Axis side. This is an incentive for Germany/Italy to attack (plus somewhat realistic, as Hitler invaded knowing that if he waited, USSR would only be more powerful).
I don’t like this because its a staler for Germany so it can elect to knock out one ally before turning on the other and avoid a 2 front war. It would imbalance the game toward axis.
If Germany invades the USSR before the USSR invades Germany, the USSR is unable to attack German forces on its next turn.
Id rather they all soviet land units defend at 1 on first combat round. that makes some sence and its simple.
When combat takes place in the United Kingdom or American forces are attacked, America joins the war.
Yes but add provision that US enters war no matter what by turn X or game imbalanced.
Japan has a victory point win condition similar to pacific. However, Japan does not obtain victory points until America has entered the war.
The first time Japan attacks America, all American naval units defend at 1. However, America receives a Purchase Units and Place Units phase before combat is resolved (to prevent Japan from walking into western USA).
yes not bad.
All USSR infantry and artillery defend at 3 against Japanese units in red territory.
yes quite right.
The game ends when a power fulfills victory conditions. That power wins. All conquest-based conditions require the power to retain control of the area conquered for a full round. Victory conditions are as follows (2 per power):
Germany/Italy:
Victory if Moscow is under German/Italian control.
Victory if the United Kingdom is under German/Italian control.Japan:
Victory if 24 victory points are reached.
Victory if Hawaii, Australia, and India are all under Japanese control.Axis USSR:
Victory if the United Kingdom is under USSR control.Allied USSR:
Victory if Berlin is under USSR control.USSR:
Victory if Russia retains all original red territories, plus at least 15 IPC of other territory.Western Allies:
Victory if Berlin, Paris, Rome, and Moscow are under Allied control.
Victory if Tokyo is under Allied control or Japan fails to collect victory points on its turn.yes historical victory, not artificial. you will need tweeks on playtesting after more games.
Tie:
If USSR and the Western Allies each fulfill their victory condition at the same time, whichever side has more IPC income is considered to have the advantage in the cold war, and therefore is the ultimate victor.yes good.
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I definitely like your idea for USSR defending at 1 during the first invasion.
As for the two-front war for Germany, I was counting on the USSR player betraying Germany most of the time if Germany chose to let the USSR player stay Axis. Perhaps giving the USSR an incentive for this, so that Germany knows its time is limited- attack or be attacked.
I like forcing America into the war, but I don’t like turn limit. Perhaps, at the end of a round, America keeps track of how many IPC the axis earn. For every 10, America moves 1 space closer to forced entry into the war. This solves two problems- one, it brings America into the war, and two, as long as the USSR is Axis aligned, it gets into the war faster- Germany has a choice, invade USSR and see America enter the war potentially later, or keep the USSR Axis, allowing the USA to join the game faster.
I dunno, just bouncing ideas around.
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I think its better to set certain goals
and let the players logically decide whether its time enter the warrather than a huge table of fixed events as to when to enter war
I don’t like….
massive buildup at border but hey I haven’t touched you yet so you stay neutral lol
or
nothing happens but I’ll miraculously declare war on turn 4 -
:lol: Good one IL! Made me LOL! Good to see you back Flashman. Haven’t heard from you in awhile.
Thanks.
I’ve been busy elsewhere this year, mainly Advanced Kingmaker stuff. The A&A 50 thing must have blown just after I got diverted. I’ll let you know what I think when I’ve seen the OFFICIAL map and rules. So far about 3 positives and 30 negatives, but they didn’t sign me up for the project so no surprises there…My inspiration or this idea is the TV series “World War II behind closed doors”, which focuses on all the secret deals that went on between the leaderships. A lot of stuff on the Russians has only come out recently, and offers some interesting possibilities:
The Germans were helped by the USSR (during the alliance) in several ways, but Stalin was keen to keep them secret.
The Germans were helped to sail commerce raiders round the north of Russia which subsequently attacked UK shipping in the Pacific. Perhaps we should open up the Arctic ocean…
They were also allowed a secret base near Murmansk to repair U-boats.
Anyway the next episode focuses on the Churchill-Stalin meeting, with the sinister Yankees plotting in the background. Well worth seeing if you can find it on anywhere.
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World War II behind closed doors
what channel is this?
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BBC2.
You can view episode 1 here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00fkx70/World_War_II_Behind_Closed_Doors_Episode_1/
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Epidodes 1-4 now available:
No. 4 has lots of dirty double-dealing between the big 3:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00fy4gr/World_War_II_Behind_Closed_Doors_Episode_4/
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This is a great idea, i have alwasy thaught axis and allies could be a great free for all game(within some hitorical limits) like risk and diplomacy.
now with this edition they have a starting date where that might makes sense
I still have yet to aquire my copy of AA50, but when I do i am definently playtesting this
I was thinking how unhistorical it would be for England to let Japan take the pacific in exhacange for attaking the US so Britian could use them sooner.
but on second thought, I think Winston Churchill is as quoted saying immeditly after Peril Harbor “We have won the war”
It isn’t that unbleivable is it, British agents influenced or paid off the Japanese High Command
Bill Slim said he never had enough of anything in Burma. Was that the deal, your navy attack Peril Harbor and i will make your armies time in Burma easierif that did happen was that even wrong? if anything American pasifism and isolation was right
of course it is riduclous, the Japanese had every resaon to attack the US
which is why their should be some japanese running out of resources rulebut it is cool idea’s like this that would make this variant really enjoyable
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