An incident would not have been needed-Pearl Harbour still would have happened, just without Hitler declaring war on the US. The Battle Of The Atlantic would still have been won by the Allies, it just would have taken longer without the US fully committing to it. US participation would still have increased though, and if Germany did not declare war (which they should not, to make this scenario more likely), the US would have declared war on Germany in 1943. It might have been a different situation with a truce though.
Question: Eastern Front, 1943
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I enjoyed reading about the Wotan Line. I had never heard the name before. I had heard of the Panther line.
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Some German generals wanted to copy the T-34. Hitler turned down that idea.
In a one on one battle give me the Panther or Tiger over the T-34. In a war of extremly high numbers of production give me the T-34.
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I am in the same boat as IL,I would have withdrawn to re-arm and build a solid defendive line and let the mass of the red army break against it,and when the time was right counterattack.Also focus on the under belly of Europe as well :-o
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I have to agree with IL on this one too. Unfortunately, victory in the East was out of reach by 1943, so it would have been best to cut your losses and withdraw to a more defendable, and shorter line, using major rivers, mountains, and the Pripet marshes as obsticles to the enemies advance.
And build lots of Stug III’s for counter attacks! They are cheaper than the big tanks, but still pack a wicked punch. :wink: -
And build lots of Stug III’s for counter attacks! They are cheaper than the big tanks, but still pack a wicked punch.
spoken by a true AAM player. LOL!
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I completly agree concerning 1943. I almost chose the year 1942 to base this question on. I’m curious how the panzer units that were lost at Kursk would do, fighting a defensive war in 1943.
How would the war in the East been if the German 6th Army had broken out and joined Manstein’s relief force and Hoth’s 4th Panzer Army?
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The 6th army was broken and would take months to refit itself.
So basically the same thing, except they would have 240,000 extra for 1943, but the Soviets would have about 500,000 more that didn’t need to die taking back Stalingrad. So it could have been worse.
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One thing I love about Axis and Allies the primary, world wide game, is how historically acurate everything plays out. It’s really quite amazing. I have avidly studied the 3rd Reich for 10 years and recently focused on the Luftwaffe and the SS in detail.
Early in the beginnings of the 3rd Reich, Walter Weaver was a man who held tremendous sway with Hitler. He was organized, well respected and knew how to delegate responsibilities much like a successful CEO of a huge company.
Unlike most of the people in the high command, Weaver had read Mein Kampf through and through and understood many years before Germany went to war, that Hitler wanted to take Russia above all else. He was a champion of the “4 engine bomber program” which Goering opposed. Weaver knew that to defeat such a large country, Germany would need long range bombers capable of striking their industrial heart all the way into the far reaches of the East.
Goering, much like everyone else who had sway with Hitler, was planning for a short war. He wanted MORE planes, not better ones. He thought the idea was ridiculous and that kind of plane would take too long to build and use too much fuel. (He would rather have 2 BF-110’s over one 4 engine plane.)
Walter Weaver was an aspiring pilot himself and had little flight experience but was learning. Running late for an important funeral, he elected to fly a Heinkel bi-plane solo, rather than take the train. In his haste, he neglected most preflight checks and left the elevators and airlooms locked. When he took off, the plane went straight up, stalled & fell; exploding on impact. (Ironically, the same accident happened when Boeing first flew a test flight of the B-17 Flying Fortress in front of the US military to sell it to them)
What’s so ironic is the daylight strategic bombing is what won us the war against the Nazi’s. The very same strategy Weaver envisioned to take Russia. Along with Walters death, so died the 4 engine bomber for Germany. I voted for a counter attack with long range bombers in mind. (I should have voted for a defensive line while the bombers were tested and mass produced.)
That and one other key mistake lost Germany the war. During “The Battle of Britain”, Hitler became enraged when a few bombs fell on Berlin one night, causing no casulties or serious damage. His pride was hurt and in a rage, he ordered the Luftwaffe to turn all attacks away from airfields and ship yard to civilian targets like London.
Every officer of significant rank was opposed to this. The UK had less than 250 operational fighters at the time and the Nazis had air superiority. They were months away from completely destroying the RAF. The next few months of civilian bombing in England gave the RAF just enough time to rebuild their air force. They worked ‘round the clock. Soon the air victory ratio changed in the RAFs’ favour as hundreds of new Spitfires rose to do battle with the now outdated Heinkel 111’s and Bf-110’s. “Operation Sea Lion” (the invasion of England) was postponed indefinately after the U.K.s’ raid on Dieppe. A bloody and fruitless prelude to D-Day. While the British had attempted to attack fortress Europe and taken devistating casulities, Germany was now in no position to invade England.
2 major mistakes here on Hitlers part mainly due to pride. His own arrogance and fanatasism lost him the war.
Sorry to rant here but I’m way into WWII history and I strongly believe under the correct leadership and with different decisions, Europe and Russia would be Nazi territory to this day. Thank god Hitler didn’t know a thing about military strategy, nor did he listen much to his subordiates that did.
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Obergruppenfuhrer, nice post!
I have really enjoyed this site. My wife says my obsessed. I spent all my teenage years reading everything I could concerning WWII and loved every moment. After high school for the most part, I put aside my passion for WWII.
Ten years later I have once again found my passion for WWII.
What is it about World War 2 that captures our passion?
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Thanks! I think it’s the romantic nature of the war. All the nationalism that was going on, the style of the 40’s and most importantly, it was the last war where a mans skill took precidence over technology. It was the last war of real “dogfighting.” We saw bravery in World War 2 and self sacrafice on all sides that inspires us. Every nation was united. There were no “anti-war” protests. There were some of those feelings going around but they weren’t popular.
Instead of “Why are we in this war?” the attitude seemed to be what can I do to help? As members of every social class rose to help the war effort, the great depression died and economies flourished in Europe and the US. In Europe a poor man could serve his country and become widely respected and finally feed his family.
Hope was alive in World War 2. Even in the most desperate times of the war, hope and perserverance prevailed. We will never see the epic battles that took place in that time ever again. Thousands of planes at war in the sky. Hundreds of thousands of men doing battle on the field in close proximity.
That era is very romantic to me. I would love to have served on B-17F Flying Fortress, firing those 50’ cals at 25,000 feet with no fighter escort. The comradery, and bravery of those men. Even if I died, bleeding to death on the floor of a B-17F as my crew held me as we neared the English coast with 2 engines burning; no one would bail out just because they wanted me to have a chance. That would be one of the most honorable deaths I could ever imagine. You can see how romantic so many of those stories are. I read stories from that war that seem like they are straight out of a fiction book but they are not. Man I could go on forever with amazing stories but I won’t. I get caught up writing about it.
I strongly recommend books by Martin Caiden.
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“The universe is so vast and so ageless that the life of one man can only be justified by the measure of his sacrifice.” - a R.A.F pilot who died in 1940
I took that quote from the book Wild At Heart. The quote really moved me.
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That quote moves me too man. Wow.
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Obergruppen fuhrer,
I enjoy reading your posts. You have a very detailed knowledge of the war, a very articulate vocabulary and the passion to do it all justice.
You seemed to have awakened my passion for WWII I also had in high school but lost when I graduated and became occupied with other things.
Again thank you for your posts,
LT
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@LT04:
Obergruppen fuhrer,
I enjoy reading your posts. You have a very detailed knowledge of the war, a very articulate vocabulary and the passion to do it all justice.
You seemed to have awakened my passion for WWII I also had in high school but lost when I graduated and became occupied with other things.
Again thank you for your posts,
LT
Wow. That’s one of the biggest compliments to me. Thank you very much. I’ve studied the war since I was 6. I’m 29 now and I’ve only begun to seriously disect details within the past 5 years. My primary knowledge lies in especially in the Luftwaff & The 3rd Reich in every aspect. Also I have extensive knowledge in the Fock Wulf 190 A-1 - A-5, The Messerschmitt 109 E-4 & G and the B-17 flying fortress F and G. I read a 700 page book on the flying fortress by Marin Caiden last summer and it was amazing once you get through all the technical specs and get into the amazing stories.
I’m SO happy to hear that I’ve ignited your passion again. That makes me feel wonderful because I know how wonderful it feels to be passionate about something. It makes life worth living even when things are horrible. Perhaps that’s how people felt about the war back then and that’s what got them through? Passion.
Thanks again for your gracious compliment!
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Thanks! I think it’s the romantic nature of the war.
I have read a lot of the books by Martin Caiden, and have most of them I think, including the ones on the bombing of Hamburg and the firebomb raid on Tokyo. Have you read them? Or the account in the Ragged and Rugged Warriors on the Battle of the Bismarck Sea? Or better yet, some of the PT boats sailors accounts of the Bismarck Sea? Where they are getting sick to their stomachs at shooting Japaneses soldiers in the water, and what the explosion of a depth charge set shallow did to a human body? Or the account in Bob Johnson’s book, Thunderbolt, where he cold-bloodedly shot a German pilot who was trying to bail out of his burning plane? Have you read anything on Tarawa, where the Marines waded in waist-deep water for a half a mile or so, while under murderous Japanese automatic weapons fire? Tarawa, where the following poem first appeared.
“And when he gets to Heaven,
To St. Peter he will tell,
One more Marine reporting,
I’ve served my time in Hell!”Any one who regards war as romantic, has an extremely adolescent view of war, and needs to do a lot more reading about war. War in not in the least romantic. It is a dirty nasty business, filled with enormous amounts of terror and unpleasantness, that at the same time can bring out the best and the worst in mankind, a mixture of incredible and selfless courage and unbelieveable beastality and brutality.
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Thanks! I think it’s the romantic nature of the war.
Any one who regards war as romantic, has an extremely adolescent view of war, and needs to do a lot more reading about war. War in not in the least romantic.
I think your service makes you a little sensitive on the subject sir, with all due respect. I have not read the books you mentioned about the South Pacific but I know of it’s horror. I have read Bob Johnsons book. He didn’t kill that pilot in “cold blood”. He did it becuase the pilot was so highly skilled in the dog fight, even against Robert Johnsons superior plane. Bob knew that once that pilot hit the ground with his chute open, he would be back in the air, killing pilots that weren’t as good as Bob.
Surely you can even see the logic in that. It did make me sad to read that. War is a horror that I can only imagine with sick stomach, having not been in one. I am very “adolescent” in the manner I write, feel and describe things that I find beauty in.
I find beauty in courage and self sacrafice. You’ve read plenty of those accounts in his books I’m sure. That is romantic to me. Self Sacrafice and courage in the most ugly situation the world could give you. (I don’t think the same about suicide bombers or even Kamakazi pilots) I do find courage in a fock wulf ramming a B-17 when he’s out of ammunition or damaged and would rather give his life than see those bombs fall on his home towns killing many more people than him and the crew of that bomber.
Many people in this forum find an agreement with me on this subject. For you, it must be something you either don’t agree with or hits far too close to home. I could understand that. I haven’t served my country. You have.
You don’t strike me as the poet, desperate romantic type. Rather, a disciplined man with wisdom and experience. I could be wrong. Well, as much as you may dislike types like me who search desperately for shreds of beauty among horrors, it’s simply a matter of perspective. I think the atrocities of the war are sickening as I’m sure you do. I’m a creative writer who tries to see a few beautiful trees in a forest full of dead ones. Perhaps you just see all the dead ones.
Regardless; I respect your opinions and facts you bring to these discussions. I’d apprectiate it if you would stop pulling rank and trying to belittle a young man like myself who has nothing but respect for people that serve our country.
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It is a dirty nasty business, filled with enormous amounts of terror and unpleasantness, that at the same time can bring out the best and the worst in mankind…
You may be talking about Romance here and not just warfare.
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Not romance. “Romantizing a period of time” is what I reffer to. It happens all the time. Just like some “romantize” the revolutionary times in the 60’s.
But I’m using illustrations more and more like a creative writer here (which I am) and less like a stone cold Killer or historian.
So lets just get back to business as usual shall we? My Reich armor can pop Shermans like they were balloons.
–-Yeah. I’m now considering myself a Nashorn ace. I don’t recall losing a single battle yet where I had that vehicle. I love that thing. A stone cold, calculated tank obliterator. You just have to keep it safe on the board becuase of it’s weak defense. With it’s ability to ignore one hex of cover, it’s usually not hard to keep that thing in an awesome sniper postion and it’s got the speed to fall back if necessary. Plus – my god, the range alone on that wepon! I love this game.
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