Allies IC Question

@Marshmallow-of-War

You don’t know if the defender would hit or not, so you can’t reliably “clear” the territory with 1 ground unit–you’d still end up taking the territory in 1/3 of those attacks. That means that you can’t attack it, and if your opponent knows that, he can leave a potential landing space there for most of the game.

I think you’re on to something about the effects of having ever taken it in a long, late game, but its much simpler for Germany to sweep the entire thing on round 1 and stash the cash–winning the game before that drawn-out game occurs.

@taamvan True, but consider please:

1. I can play the odds that one hit will happen. 2/3 of the time that works.
2. I have yet to meet an Allied player who doesn’t somehow waste those French troops from Normandy by “taking” Holland. Once the troops are in Holland there is no risk of me accidentally taking Normandy.

But hey, to each his own!

Marsh

@Marshmallow-of-War

I like that sucker move… players assume that moving a unit is more favorable or useful than simply leaving it be. Take German territory to add the income to the National Bank of Paris…German-owned!

One thing I preach about game-strategy is to talk to your opponent and learn what their predilections and views are. I had one opponent who told me at dinner that he “never strat bombs, because it isn’t worth it”.

He’s partly correct–in many cases the risk-reward isn’t there. However, knowing that he disfavored Stratbombing, I didn’t need to take measures to protect against it and could use that information to conceptually limit the potential uses of his bombers when setting up my Noncoms.

@taamvan said in Allies IC Question:

I think you’re on to something about the effects of having ever taken it in a long, late game, but its much simpler for Germany to sweep the entire thing on round 1 and stash the cash–winning the game before that drawn-out game occurs.

FYI, I’ve only ever outright won two games in six rounds or less (three if you count A&A Zombies, where I believe I hold the world record for winning in two turns). And one of those games was Anniversary, where it’s just “France”.

But yeah, in that one game where I achieved rulebook Pacific victory in six turns, that would’ve been free money for me ;-)

Marsh

@taamvan said in Allies IC Question:

@Marshmallow-of-War

I like that sucker move… players assume that moving a unit is more favorable or useful than simply leaving it be. Take German territory to add the income to the National Bank of Paris…German-owned!

One thing I preach about game-strategy is to talk to your opponent and learn what their predilections and views are. I had one opponent who told me at dinner that he “never strat bombs, because it isn’t worth it”.

He’s partly correct–in many cases the risk-reward isn’t there. However, knowing that he disfavored Stratbombing, I didn’t need to take measures to protect against it and could use that information to conceptually limit the potential uses of his bombers when setting up my Noncoms.

Truth brother, but in this case the knowledge is of minimal aid to my opponents because I don’t play on the forums anymore. Too many folks only want to play “balanced mode” or PtV.

On the other hand, Andrew right now is off doing math to see if I’m right.

Marsh

@Marshmallow-of-War said in Allies IC Question:

On the other hand, Andrew right now is off doing math to see if I’m right.

Well, after doing the math, I would say depending on the circumstances you are right. Though it is not as great as you mentioned, $10 a Turn forever, it certainly is a boatload of money. Taking a captured Normandy saves the US $42 in transport costs plus gains them $2 a Turn. Spread out over, lets say, 10 Turns that is basically $6 a Turn then it drops down to $2 a Turn forever and, as you say, the Axis may only get $10 for holding it 5 Turns. Figuring only the first $6 helps against Moscow that is three armor upgraded from mechanized infantry against Moscow for a big Allied savings in money.

So unless the Axis is pretty darn sure they can hold it forever it looks like it is better to leave it alone.

@AndrewAAGamer @Marshmallow-of-War

How do the allies produce there if its being constantly retaken? Once the allies are established on the French zones and hold that over the whole turn, the game usually is close to defeat (once Moscow falls the $$$ flops to the Germans and while Tripple AAA players may go on from there, live games usually wrap at that point unless the most of the German Air Force died taking it).

@taamvan said in Allies IC Question:

@AndrewAAGamer @Marshmallow-of-War

How do the allies produce there if its being constantly retaken? Once the allies are established on the French zones and hold that over the whole turn, the game usually is close to defeat (once Moscow falls the $$$ flops to the Germans and while Tripple AAA players may go on from there, live games usually wrap at that point unless the most of the German Air Force died taking it).

I think you are saying that by the time the Allies can take Normandy the game is usually over anyway as Moscow is either taken or close to being taken. Is that correct?

Also, while I wait for your answer, you are correct my calculations assumed the Allies landed and held Normandy and it was not being traded.

So first off, let me say, that unless France went poorly, and I lost too many units, I always take Normandy on G2. So, this is kind of a new line of thought for me.

From my experience I would say it is not uncommon for the Allies to have enough strength to take and hold Normandy by Turn 4. This assumes a) Japan does a DoW on J1 or J2 and b) the US is willing to put a decent investment into Europe. The US can easily have 3-5 transports ready to go by the end of US2 and already has the ground troops to fill those transports. On US3 they go to Morocco and on US4 they land on Normandy. UK then follows with 2-4 more ground units and normally a whole bunch of fighters. Since typically the Luftwaffe is on the Eastern Front and the Germans have been spending a bunch of their money to take Moscow there is not usually a whole lot of defense to counterattack this move. Of course, @Marshmallow-of-War was assuming a US5 attack but either way the Axis are usually not in position to counterattack yet. Now the Allied forces may stay in Normandy or move on to Norway or worse case, for the Axis, hold both.

Now IF Moscow falls on G7 or G8 then the Allies are not going to hold the beaches of Normandy. Germany can put down 20 units a Turn and the Allies have no way to logistically match that. However, taking Moscow is not a given and I have seen plenty of games where Moscow either never falls or does not fall till like G11 or G12. In this case, the Allies have had a head start building up their landing area and it is a tough nut to crack and this is where Marshmallow-of-War’s point I think is being made. If Moscow does not fall early it is a lot better for the Axis to not take Normandy than it is for them to take Normandy.

Therefore, we have three scenarios that I can think of:

1. The US goes heavy in the Pacific so there is never any real push against Normandy
2. Moscow falls by G8 so the Axis can retake any Allied Normandy Landings
3. The Allies are able to take and hold Normandy for the entire game

In scenarios 1 and 2 it makes sense for Germany to take Normandy. In scenario 3 it does not. But by G2 you probably do not know for sure if 1 or 2 are going to happen which means it may be safer to not take Normandy. None of this takes into consideration that normally after a few Turns there is usually an Allied sub convoy disrupting Normandy so even if the Axis hold it, they do not always collect for it. Which means even for scenarios 1 and 2 it may not pay off for the Axis as much as they hoped it would.

Hmmm, after considering this I think Marshmallow-of-War makes a good point that not taking Normandy is the right way to go. I say this because the short-term gains for the Axis with scenarios 1 and 2 are not equal to the long-term benefits to the Allies under scenario 3 and the benefits of scenario 1-2 are normally limited by Allied convoy disruption anyway.

@AndrewAAGamer said in Allies IC Question:

So first off, let me say, that unless France went poorly, and I lost too many units, I always take Normandy on G2. So, this is kind of a new line of thought for me.

It should not be new to you. I’ve been preaching it at IP games and here on the forums since 2016. Here’s an article where I specifically mention not taking Normandy:

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/post/994002

No one listens…

Marsh