To be assured of killing the Kwangtung transport you must throw away an Aircraft Carrier and a Destroyer. Cost: 28 IPC. Gain? 8 IPC. This does not strike me as an overly strong gambit. Especially considering Japan’s going to be spending money on transports either way.
Likewise the submarine in SZ 45 isn’t that big of a deal. Why am I sending perfectly good fodder at worthless targets? Killing the Submarine in SZ 45 has never saved my American Aircraft Carrier. Even if it did, what, American can’t just buy two carriers and a fighter on US 1 if it wanted too?
However, I split my fleet and run for home. I now have a 128 IPC fleet not including any fleet I purchase. That’s plenty to kill off some pesky carriers that Germany actually had to blow money on, money it did not blow on ground units to pressure Russia.
As for Japan, they’re neither further along nor farther behind because of their extra Transport. Not in the grand scheme of things.
If Russia have 6 inf in Bury, then the surviving trans may be a problem, but if you don’t attack the trans, then
Russia naturally will retreat to Yakut, before the UK turn. This may be an issue in multiplayer…
There are very few players who don’t do the DD attack, it’s generally reckon to be one of the most important
opening moves.
Ah, see, to me that’s a major problem. Why am I leaving 18 IPC worth of units where they can be shelled at will by the Japanese to defend a 1 IPC plot of perma-frost?
I’ll usually have 1 infantry in Buryatia (to force you to keep a battleship behind, or devote some honest forces to take Bury) and have 3 infantry in Yakut and 2 infantry in Novosibirsk. That’s what happens to my 6 Siberian Infantry units, normally.
To be assured of killing the Kwangtung transport you must throw away an Aircraft Carrier and a Destroyer. Cost: 28 IPC. Gain? 8 IPC. This does not strike me as an overly strong gambit. Especially considering Japan’s going to be spending money on transports either way.
You think of this incorrectly. It is 28 IPCs of units that basically has no value to you since it is so far away, and the 8 IPCs you are destroying definitely slows down Japanese land invasion. If you don’t take it out, India falls on J1 for sure if you counterattacked Anglo, and also stacking 6 inf in Bury or even 1 doesn’t remotely bother the Japanese anymore. It is also 28 IPCs of units you don’t have to replace in any way. Looking purely at IPC costs of units isn’t very useful; I mean really do you go “wow, the UK lost 55 IPCs of units - Anglo Egypt, SZ13, SZ15, at the cost of 2 German inf! They lose!”
As for Japan, they’re neither further along nor farther behind because of their extra Transport.
I don’t understand how you could say this. An extra transport will allow the Japanese to move in faster. Waiting for UK 5 to invade Norway because you’re waiting for the Indian fleet does slow down the Allied advance.
Because the added increase of Japanese movement is not significant if looked at in a 10 round game perspective. Sure, for rounds 1 and 2 they’ll be moving faster, but that rate of benefit decreases in value over time, eventually reaching a peak performance and never exceeding that curve.
Meanwhile the 6 infantry you claim are too far away from Germany to help, are actually not all that far. Again, we’re talking 3 rounds before they are fully redeployed against Germany. In the over all grand scheme of a 10 round game, this is not much time at all. And considering that 18 IPC out of 24 IPC in come is rather significant (not to mention it’s 12 Punch on defense, roughly 2 hits a round more) that can be sorely needed agaisnt the German war machine.
Remember, I also advocate that British fleet redeployment to Europe. Coincidentally, that’s also a 3 round journey. That means you have just limited the Germans to 3 rounds before all hell breaks lose.
I think that Japanese TRN in sz59 is enough important also looking forward to a 10 round game.
IMHO it is more important than the Indian DD, so the best thing that the indian DD may do in its short operative life is to attack and sink the TRN. After that it will be utterly killed by a Japanese BB… Royal Navy is famous for winning the Wars not the battle.
The AC is not needed, 1 more die point is useless. We are speaking of a battle between a DD (50% of hit) against a TRN (about 16,7%). I and my friends play Revised by almost two years, and I have still to see the UK DD sunk by the Japanese TRN.
So AC and TRN may be saved. Having the Japanese fleet the need to kill the destroyer, Indian Ocean Fleet is almost free of doing whatever UK player wants. Usually I join them in sz30 with the SUB and TRN from sz40.
Moreover, if UK leaves sz35 Japan has an easy shot to India in first turn, and maybe UK fleet cruising to Europe will receive a lot of bad news from what happening in Russia.
In a face2face game of us, Japanese player conquered India and placed there an IC in J1. Good move in my opinion.
Regarding Buratyia usually we pull back all the infantry to Yakut. I think that leaving one there to be shot by a JApanese BB is not useful. I do not think that Russia should spend inf to defend Allied ships in Pacific that USA may replace if needed and UK do not care because almost useless.
This is also, as Trihero said, a move relly needed in multiplayer games (we usually are 4 or 5 players).
Because if Russia retreat then UK may attack or not the TRN in sz59. If Russia leave units in Buratyia UK must attac kthe TRN in sz59.
The DD attack on the Jap trans is 70%-72%.
That means it fails statistically about 1 of 4 or 1 of 5 times ?
Lucifer, statistically you are rigth.
But as I said I have never seen those DD sunk without killing the Japanese TRN.
Statistically speaking we will see it one day. Maybe UK players in our playgroup has always been lucky.
The day the TRN will sink the UK DD, we will learn to send other shi pwith the DD.
Maybe the entire Indian Fleet!!!
I’ve seen the DD and the AC sunk with the Transport alive. Not often, but I’ve seen it (like twice this year.)
Anyway, if you attack with a DD you have an 85% chance to sink the transport and a 30% chance to be sunk by the transport. However, you have a 100% chance to be sunk before England moves again, I guarantee that!
I’m all about conserving what you have and not wasting it on futile attacks if at all possible. The Transport in SZ 59 is nice to kill if you are backing it up with an attack on Borneo and New Guinea. (2 Inf, Fig to Borneo, 2 Inf to New Guinea, both statistically in your favor.) Followed by an attack on the SZ 45 submarine, for good measure and a strong American build in SZ 55 to drive the point home that Japan’s going on defensive maneuvers this game.
But unless you are willing to commit to that level of aggressiveness to Japan, I think the better choice is to leave the transport (one that would be rebuilt anyway costing only 8 to Japan and 12 to England minimum) in favor of building fighters for a few rounds and then having a full fleet with a very strong air force from then on.
It’s opportunity cost, I guess.
Jennifer, in may country there is an ancient proverb that say:
“Who hits first, hits two times!”
I know that the DD is doomed to die. But it not sunk by itself. Japanese have to attack it.
But IMHO it is important to kill sz59 TRN. For two reason.
For short term planning it avoid the use of it for the Japanese and keep the India safe in the first turn. It disrupt positioning of Japanese fleet, force the use of at least a BB and 1 fig to kill the DD, and leave the Indian Ocean Fleet without immediate threat.
For long term planning it is a disruption of Japanese landing, introduce a delay, and is one more TRN that Jpanese have to buy instead of having it ready to use. If I could sink also the Japanese TRN in sz60 for sure I would kill it!
I’m all about conserving what you have and not wasting it on futile attacks if at all possible.
And then in the same breath you say blitz a German tank to Archangel? :wink:
I do see where you’re coming from actually, I like to conserve units, and it’s a good move to keep in mind if Germany made some impossible fleet to crack. I’m just not sure I can wait that long (UK5) to land safely in Germany/E. Europe/Karelia.
Jennifer, in may country there is an ancient proverb that say:
“Who hits first, hits two times!”
Romulus, you are full of sh!
JK lol, I just thought since you asked us to say that in the other thread, that I would for the fun of it. What country do you come from anyways?
I am Italian. From Benevento a very small Town in the South of Italy.
Being Italian I have to say that I have only a barely sufficient preparation in english. And I am notoriously an optimist! :)
Growing up I am forced by my work to read and write in english.
But you know… we italian reall do not speak english we speak English-Iano! (That is Enhlish + Italiano)
Maybe because our language is difficult and really different from the English, more similar to French.
French and Italian should be a funn ylanguage for you. FOr us all is Male or Female, we have no “it”, “its” etc.
Moreover, other European say that “to stop an Italian from speaking you have only to bind his hands on his back!”.
This because we use a lot of gesture with our hands when speaking.
I must say that it is a thing that help me, when I am abroad, gesture allow me to be understood more easy.
Internet forum like this are sligthly difficults for me.
I can not use gesture! I have to write and sometime I am not able to communicate correctly.
Moreover Italian is a language with more useless thing that we add to sentences, that also are long. (As you can see looking at my posts :) )
So why I am on AxisAndAllies.org?
Because A&A is my preferred boardgame and becasue the forum is in english!
Yeah, I have still the hope to learn english… as I said I am an optimist!
I tend to go HARD on SZ59… Entire SZ35 fleet. It gives me a reasonable chance to take out both the TRN, and a Jap ship or FIG (unless he brings both BB’s, but that leaves his TRN’s unprotected or out of position for J2 and weakens the Pearl strike…)
So the UK uses SZ35 FIG, TRN and SUB from 40 to attack the Japan SZ45 SUB. Odds are for a kill with FIG and SUB attacking.
1 TRN, 1 AC, 1 DST against SZ59, usually cleared w/o loss
FIG lands on USA AC in SZ52.
What is the result?
1. Japan has 1 less attacking unit and fodder naval asset for SZ52
2. An extra unit with a defense of 4 in SZ52
3. A living UK SUB in SZ45 that can go after any unguarded Japan TRN placed in SZ60
4. 3 units with a defense of 7 in SZ59 that need to be taken out lest they join up with the SUB and TRN from SZ45
5. A living UK TRN that can raid Japan’s islands as they are emptied.
So… Japan will take 1 more hit in SZ52 on average, MAYBE 2. That is 1 less unit that USA need to battle on the Counter to wipe out half of teh Japan Fleet.
Japan has to devote more than just AC and BB from SZ37 to re-clear SZ59, either the BB form SZ60 (meaning Japan can;t do “Pearl Heavy” and also meaning new TRN’s are going to have to be placed in SZ61 or get pounded by the SUB/TRN from SZ45) or a FIG (one less FIG for China…)
You can see the result in the 2-on-2 game Bo and I are currently playing. Even with good Japan dice on J1, as we move in to Round 2, Japan had to place their TRNs in SZ61 instead of 60, the SZ52 fleet is dead, and China was taken so lightly that the Americans counter-attacked and liberated it on US1. And Japan is down half their fleet (missing their SUB, DST, 1 AC, 1 BB, 1 TRN) and half their AF (almost, down 2 FIG, 1 BOM out of 7 initial aircraft). Japan only has 4 INF in Asia at the start of J2, instead of 4+ in China alone.
$103 IPC’s of Japan Navy/AF killed and $15 IPC of INF killed. And Japan is back to $30 IPC current income for the start of their J2 move.
And with some shifting of USSR forces, India is secure for at least J2, Japan has to re-attack China, and Bury, though winnable, will now take a concentration of nearly the entire Japan force to take it with barely any land units surviving… all for “$1 of permafrost” as Jen calls it.
That is a HELL of a slow-down of the Imperial Forces, giving Russia a full extra turn to go all out on Germany as the US and UK gear up in Europe…
And UK still has a SUB and TRN floating around…
Switch… do you have some ancestor called Horatio Nelson or Chester W. Nimitz?
I am considering your strategies and I must say that it really can create a lot of problem to Japanese. They have to run from the beginning!
I would create problem to Japanese but… this is really bad! :evil:
So the UK uses SZ35 FIG, TRN and SUB from 40 to attack the Japan SZ45 SUB. Odds are for a kill with FIG and SUB attacking.
1 TRN, 1 AC, 1 DST against SZ59, usually cleared w/o loss
FIG lands on USA AC in SZ52.
Is this one of those things it took the year I was gone to come up with? That’s a standard KJF opening! :evil:
The con is that Anglo-Egypt isn’t getting countered, but maybe your game can allow that to happen for whatever reason.
It is a balanced open, and it lets Germany run a bit in Africa, yes. But not much with a UK/US move into Africa.
More details after our game unfolds a bit… we just took a massive setback in SZ5… lost 3 FIGs and only killed a SUB (the two games out of a thousand odds result…)
I can;t afford to give any additional info to our opponents about our plans…
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again.
Attacking SZ 59 is the same as pissing in the wind. Sure, you’ll kill a lowly transport who never did anything to England and couldn’t do a dang thing to England if it’s bloody life depended on it! Now, if you are putting an IC in India, sure, kill the tranny so she can’t bring forces to knock over your little mini-capitol on round 1. But you better darn well be sure you are backing that maneuver with Russian and American forces (and US ICs in China and Sinkiang!) so you can keep Japan off the mainland forever!
Now, more realistically, if you bring those forces home, you have a full fleet and can spend your “extra” money on additional air power. Air power that’s going to give the Axis headaches when trying to over throw Moscow/Stalingrad. Air power that can hopefully buy you time to reclaim Africa and build up land forces in Moscow.
Anyway, to the SZ 5 question, why are so many people amazed when they lose 2 or 3 air craft to the Sub, Sub, Trn, Des defenders?
3+3+4 = 10, 1 2/3rds hits in Round 1
1+3 = 4 2/3rds hits in Round 1.
Odds of Round 1:
2 Submarines Sunk
1 Fighter Destroyed
3+4 = 7, 1 1/6ths hits in Round 1
1+3 = 4 2/3rds hits in Round 1.
Odds of Round 2:
1 Transport sunk
1 Fighter destroyed
4 Attack
vs
3 Defense
Odds of Round 3
1 Destroyer Sunk
1 Bomber destroyed.
Result: No British Air Force, no Northern German Fleet.
Here’s what Frood says:
Attacker Survives: 30%
Defender Survives: 20%
(And, for the record if you do it round by round, frood gives the same casualties I just listed by doing Low Luck and some conservative rounding for the defender, liberal rounding for the attacker.)
Switch’s result being a really absurd result for the battle, but not completely impossible. (as Germany I’d kiss you if I had that result. I’d SOO be sailing out past Denmark after that!)
UK, USA and URSS are on the same side. Even if the TRN could do nothing directly to the UK it may be used to do “something” to the Russian or to the USA.
I believe that absence of the TRN in J1 introduces a delay in Japanese landings.
UK cannot wait round 4 to land in North Europe. The landing has to be performed before. Or UK buy 1 AC (that is really useful IMHO) or USA build 1-2 AC to protect the Allied shipping. Indian Fleet is too far and so need something of useful to do.
Creating prolem to the Japanese is a good option.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again.
Attacking SZ 59 is the same as pissing in the wind. ….
Anyway, to the SZ 5 question…
Again, you are assuming that the ALLIES always are running KGF.
This is not a valid assumption.
When it can be run, KJF is much more deadly to the axis, IMHO. The reason? It is much easier to contain Germany than it is to contain Japan when the allies focus on one of the two Axis powers.
I will attack SZ5 when running a KJF and I can land in Africa round 1 safely. The Indian IC is a required build for KJF, and then I am not really adding much defense to UK round 1 buy. I want to kill that sz5 transport so London is safe.
Also killing sz59 tpt is vital in a KJF game to keep as many units from asia as possible.
I believe that even if the Allies goes for KGF they should slow down Japan a little in the beginning gaining useful time.
