Yes.
Japan counters to a West Russia stack
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You’re right Jennifer I was discounting the N orth African route because the group of guys I play with don’t typically use it. However I think that one of Japans greatest strengths is that you can see everything coming a couple of turns in advance. I think if I saw a rather large syack of US/UK units in Algeria I would be able to adjust my avenues of approach on moscow to limit that stacks effectiveness. Maybe not who knows thats what makes the game fun.
Even with the UK and US dropping units in Africa Japan can build a force to counter them and still take IPC’s from the UK and RUS. So japan would have more money to allocate to stopping that advance plus the JPN IC’s are closer to the action. The US and UK have to shuttle their troops by TRN. Advantage JPN.
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And Germany will if US puts troops thrue africa in the start smash them, and later they will just send everything against Moscow, since no allied landing is in sight (and no UK can´t Break Germany by themselves.)
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5 turns for the US to be putting heavy pressure on Persia is rather optimistic. The first round landing in Algeria is only 4 units and since the US has to build more TP’s, the second landing will be pretty small as well. Plus it will take an extra round to get the first big group of units going through E Can from E US. And since Germany will most likely have Africa the first 2 US landings will be dealing with cleaning up Axis units. And by the time the US gets to Persia in force the Imperial Japanese fleet is alrealdy sitting in sz34 chewing up the advanced US reiforcements with BB bombardments and diverting US troops with landings in IEA. That doesn’t even count the Japanese ground forces that have been massing in India from the beginning. My Indian IC is never under threat from invasion and I always get Persia no matter how many Allied units are sent there. Sending US troops through north Africa is merely a delaying action to give the UK/Russia time to contain Germany. The amount of Russian units it would take to be able to hold Persia is staggering and it ends up drawing Russian units from other areas and smart Axis players will take advantage of that. As a strategy, it’s one of the better ones but don’t make the assumption that you will be pushing Japan back. All you will be doing is holding them off with the goal being trying to keep Russia alive long enough to destroy Germany.
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If Japan goes THAT heavy to Africa, then Japan will be weak elsewhere… like the northern and in particular the central avenues of attack. That allows Rusia to keep their IPC’s up, and adds RUSSIAN forces to the Persian counter…
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Northern route is basically irrelevant, and will be taken by japan easy. Becuse Russia lacks offensive units.
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I didn’t say Japan was landing in Africa heavy. A couple infantry going to IEA forces the US to bleed off units to retake it or let japan have Africa. Japan easily wins those battles with BB support and air superiority. Russia will have it’s hands full supporting the UK in Europe and trading territories with Japan in the north and middle. Rarely do they have much cash to add units to the Persian front. More often than not their builds are just replacing what they lose every turn. In my experience the north collapses which forces a pull back to Cauc and Rus. The Japanese goal is to keep the US and Russia separated in T-J and Cauc respectively to keep the US from getting troops into Cauc.
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I believe Switch was trying to point out that Japan has a limited amount of assets available. They cannot have their entire armies both on Moscow’s door step and in Calcutta. Thus they are either weaker at both locations, or almost abesnt from one of those locations so they can build enough to counter American aggression. And if America neutralizes Japan while keeping Africa in England’s hand, that’s an allies game. Germany at 35 IPC (-3 Norway, -1 Algeria, -1 Libya and that’s best case scenario) facing Russia at 21 IPC (worst case Russia’s down 3 IPC up nothing) and England at 24 IPC (Down Australia, New Zealand and India) is going to falter. That alone is going to be 45 IPC to 35 IPC in favor of the allies. All they have to do is make Japan keep focusing on America and off Russia.
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I have never seen a US push to hold Persia like you guys are saying. I have seen the US send a meager force to “assist” the UK in taking and holding Africa but never a full blown assult beating down Japan’s mainland army. For the most part I’ve seen the US send troops mostly INF to Norway and and reinforce Russian positions until one of the allies gets the gusto to take it to Berlin or reinforce until there is a sizeable force on the Russian / German front so Russia can afford to send troops else where to hold whatever it has left. Even then Russia won’t take much from Japan b/c it will take all Russia has left just to hold whats there.
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Oh, it’s a beautiful thing when done right. You really should see it, LT04.
6 Transports get’s America 12 units a round into Africa. 12 Transports get’s America 12 units a round into N. Europe. Also, the 6 Transports in SZ 12 can hit S. Europe, W. Europe and Norway as well as drop down the coast of Africa to fend off potential Japanese assaults there.
Once America gets Persia, Russia can move out and turn over the reigns to Patton and Bradley to hold the land. Then, as America adds 12 units a round to the defense, they can make plans to invade India, FIC and the Rest of Asia Minor or split off forces to assist in Europe. Either way, Japan is very bad off and Germany’s looking at the decimation of her empire.
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I imagine it would be. I would suppose you would land all INF on the first wave series, then all ARM on the second wave series. then bring any air support after that. All of this assuming that Algeria is Allied held, and that the mission is all about Persia.
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Also a strong allied presence in Africa early, perhaps both a UK and US landing in Algeria, forces Germany to allocate precious resources if they want to supplement their IPC’s with the UK’s. If both the UK and US drop a R1 load in Algeria you are looking at 3-4 inf 2 ARM and 1 ART ready to go. Not the largest army in the game but enough to make Germany think about not taking Africa.
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Personally, if I go N. Africa, I land with British forces for two rounds, taking Algeria and Libya so that England has more money. As I said, America doesn’t NEED it, they have 37 pretty secure IPC already, England has 12 secure IPC.
As for landings, I find 5 Infantry, 3 Artillery, 2 Armor (37 IPC) to be a good stack. Yes, that’s only 10 ground units a round not the adverrtised 12, but you can easily get 11 infantry, 1 artillery and have 12 ground units as well. I just like my mix for personal reasons. (It’s a math thing, I don’t expect anyone on this board who has not taken MATH 416 Modelling, to understand.)
Obviously, that’s flexible. If you engage the enemy and lose a significant portion of infantry, you can focus on more infantry. Maybe going 9 Infantry, 2 Armor for a round or two to get your infantry back up.
Later you can take all the unspent money and augment your transport fleet so you can jump from E. Canada to Algeria and then from Libya to Caucasus or Trans-Jordan each round to cut the walk time. But that’s later on, after you’ve established a beach head in T-J and later Persia.
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I defiantly think you would curb Germany’s appetite for N Africa if the Allies insist that they must have it. But do you think that you would rather give Germany the illusion the allies are not intrested and then pounce like a rabid junkyard dog?
I’m just saying if I was Germany and I thought the Allies were going to put up a fight for Africa I would rather consintrate recourses in other avenues, for example a Navy or a kick a** Luft Waffe.
What do you think?
-LT04
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If the Allies do take the N. Afican route it takes some time. So if I am Germany and I see the allies securing N. Africa I am building more tanks than usual and pound Russia into submission as fast as possible. I would hope that japan could block the Allies 1 turn or 2 in Persia.
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There is no fixed COUNTER to a “West Russia stack”, because a West Russia stack is not intrinsically weak, and the rest of the board position is not defined.
As always, the Axis must play depending on board position.
Japan can go through the southern route, but to do so effectively, it will very probably need to have a factory in India, plus transports to increase flexibility of infantry movement.
That means - if it looks like the Allies will ALLOW Japan to attack through Africa, then Japan SHOULD do it.
If it looks like the Allies are making a strong attack on Africa, though, Japan can and probably should instead run tanks to Novosibirsk.
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Navy and Airforce are expensive and cannot take and hold land. If you can convince Germany to make heavy fleet or airforce purchases, I think you are miles ahead in the game.
Furthermore, if you can kick Germany out, even if you give Japan Africa, you are miles ahead. A germany collecting 35 IPC or less a round is much easier to defeat then a Germany earming greater then 40 IPC a round.
And anyway, if you don’t go heavy from round 1, just give it up for the classic furlough in London followed by assaults on Norway/Karelia route. You need the round 1 landings to get to Persia before Japan is strong enough to repell you.
Axis has the gist of it. By going N. Africa you force Germany to move faster then normal in an effort to break Russia before America can break Japan’s ability to wage war on the mainland. This is also true of a KJF strategy, Japan is diverted leaving Germany solo against two powers.
Though, I don’t think Japan has a chance in hell of blocking the Allies in Persia. Not without stellar dice. You have 8 units hitting Persia on Turn 5, 4 British, 4 Amiercan plus fighters and bombers they can bring in. On Turn 6 you have 12 more, 4 british, 8 American. After that it’s 10-12 per round from America. You can see how Japan is going to get quickly bogged down in India with 100% of it’s mainland production and whatever else it can spare going to India, which is far away from Moscow, just to prevent America from taking her mainland industrial complexes.
Who cares if Japan is making 50 IPC a round if all of it goes to hold America? That leaves 60 IPC between Russia and England to hit Germany who is making 20-35 IPC a round depending on the dice.
I’ll take that trade. Sure, America never takes a single control marker out of her box the entire game, but who cares? This is not a game of glorify America by making the world green, it’s a game of capture the flag!
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I would comment to Jen’s post that if you take the Africa route and lets assume that Germany is now forced to reckon with Russia faster then they normally would that Germany now runs the risk of having to take gambles they wouldn’t have considered before thus also leading to the Allies favor.
-LT04
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I don’t think that the Allies going through N. Africa forces Germany to attack Russia quicker, it allows Germany to attack Russia quicker. If the US sends its forces through Africa that means US troops aren’t landing in Western Europe. So Germany should step up the attack on Russia because their income isn’t going to recieve the boost from Africa. So looking at the map the most logical way to increase the German income is to take Russian territory, hard and fast.
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I don’t know as I would ever advise an invasion of WE. Yeah it forces Germany to reinforce it in the event that could happen but I like putting US troops into Norway and moving them to the front line. I prefer this method b/c lets say UK forces on Russia’s front line make a strafe attack, US forces take the front line forward then Russia reinforces it before Germany gets a turn. This way all 3 allied powers can push together thus making their consolidated efforts more effective.
-LT04
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I like the idea of a 1,2,3 allied push but a WE invasion forces Germany to fight on 2 fronts. I don’t like the idea of Germany going full force in one direction.
Just an aside for multi-player games (what I usually play) all the allies combining forces on one front is a logistical nightmare. I am sure it is different when you control all the pieces.
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