The Hitler Options

I agree that at the start of the game Germany/Italy will be at war with UK/France. (Italy declared war on UK & F June 10th 1940). I can’t see a formal Dec Of War between Germany/Russia ahead of time giving the other a warning. There shouldn’t be any permanent boost to either economy. I think there will be NO’s based on conquest in each others realms that could be rather large. There could also be an extra one time bonus to entice an invasion. I think Russia will be able to attack at will any neutral tt (pro whatever-could have consequences) from the beginning. I don’t believe The Soviets will be able to enter any allied controlled tt (or vise versa) until it is officially at war with the axis (kinda like the US). To be officially at war w/axis Russia would just simply need to attack any axis controlled tt or a pro axis neutral w/o restraints I would think. Germany/Italy could also declare war by invading any Russian controlled tt at any time. I don’t think Germany or Russia will have much as far as real attack forces in eastern Europe at the start. Maybe enough to gobble up a few neuts that are between them. They’ll need at least one turn just to buy and reposition their troops to mount any real attack.

@oztea:

I heard larry say in a thread on his boards that russia can attack germany on turn one, but it would be suicide (im assuming the borders hold only ~5 infantry and an arty) so there arent any messy rules like the US has.

Right, but when is germany allowed to attack; are there going to be a politcal rules restricting them at all.

i willing to bet germany can attack at any time

but if russia is at war while the UK is at war, i expect there a bonus to be involved for lend lease
and when the US joins the war AND you have attacked russia, expect there to be a bonus involved for russia

you will need at least a turn before its possible

G1 - Kill france
G2 - Mop up, attempt sea lion, harras UK in the Med, or go for Russia
G3 - Go for Russia, because I bet they decalare war on R3s Collect income phase

@oztea:

G3 - Go for Russia, because I bet they decalare war on R3s Collect income phase

The soviets are not going to have any politcal restictions either, I beleive they will be able to attack from the very start aswell.

UK/France will be like China is in aa40p
Russia will be like UN/ANAZAC is in aa40p
US will be like the US is in aa40p

Thats my guess anyway.  Still have no clue what will draw the US in early though.

ive read alot about this subject and yes the soveits were in war time economy( at least occording to my sorce)
and will likely have few tanks and artilery because they had little havey gear too start 1941 with this being before 1941.
and have little too none air because they lost hundreds of plane in the finnish war.

They still had 37500 planes left over. More than anyone else. To be HA they should have 4-5 fighters (even the ANZACs had 4 but it would ruin the game if they had 20) 2-3 tacks and 1 bomber.

But they will have mabey 2 fighters and a tack. 3 tanks and 5 artillary should be good.

@Vareel:

Still have no clue what will draw the US in early though.

Obviously not the fall of any part of Europe, the invasion of Russia or the Battle of Britain….

It will be tricky.
[And if it’s turn-based-auto-war like in AAP40 it will be disappointing IMHO.]

In fact, the auto-turn based war has more sense in Europe than in Pacific. Since USA entered in war after attacks on Pearl and Pearl is off-map in AAE40, is a good way of simulating the Pearl Harbour sneaky attack: just imagine Japan attacked USA in the other part of the world and Hitler made his crazy DOW on USA. In Pacific map has less sense historically (no sneaky german attacks on Puerto Rico or such), but is a mechanic needed for gameplay reasons I fear, since there is not a real diplomatic engine for the game (simulating inner politics that prevented a early DOW by USA)

The stuff I don’t like with this is being turn 3, it seems too few having 2 turns of peace, at least for Pacific. Of course, we would need a weaker Japan and a stronger China to prevent Japan toasting China too early in a long “peace” rules, and Larry seems wanting underpower the poor chinamen as default basis. I’d prefer round 4 or 5, and USA player could anyway play China and Free France until USA enters war

Bah, this game does little to represent REAL troop/aircraft/tank numbers during the war…  It simply factors in the surprise attack strength Germany had when it attacked both France and the Soviet Union.  Both countries were caught with their figurative pants down, and the lower starting troop numbers represent that in-game.

It would be pretty hard to build this where you actually have plastic on the board representing the total army sizes and still have Germany win by rolling the dice.  Maybe you could load the dice, like giving all Germany die rolls a -1 for the initial invasion of Fall Gelb in the Ardennes or Operation Barbarossa, and having all the Allied die rolls +1 for the battle.  But dice odds would still throw the game out of whack for the Axis some of the time, in which case not having the units there in the first place negates this probability.

@democratic:

They still had 37500 planes left over. More than anyone else.

Where are you getting these numbers from, I understand the USSR had the largest airforce in 1939, but from what i have read they no more than 3,000 fighters and bombers. You must of added a 0, 37,500 is absurd.

I think the game should have leaders like in the War game. Wouldn’t it be cool to get a Hitler piece in the game.

The leaders could give a boast of defense when their territory is under attack :-)

@Brain:

Wouldn’t it be cool to get a Hitler piece in the game.

That’s what Eva Braun said.

@allboxcars:

@Brain:

Wouldn’t it be cool to get a Hitler piece in the game.

That’s what Eva Braun said.

Okay so there are now two of us :-D

Easiest trigger for bringing Russia into the war is demanding that germany holds at least x Russian Victory cities when determining if it has waon ;)

Attacking Russia Early COULD be a wise strategy if you want to have soome time before the US enter the war.

What could trigger an early US war entry - if Germany attempts 8and fails?) Sea Lion - US goes immediately to war….

@Richter:

What could trigger an early US war entry - if Germany attempts 8and fails?) Sea Lion - US goes immediately to war….

I could live with that.
Otherwise I think the rest of Europe should go under the heel of jackboots without the US joining the Allies…. maybe their IPC level could rocket to war-time production when triggered by Nazi gains but no combat.

Never happen of course. Just check the address of WOTC and you know they won’t go in that direction.

You guys are getting off of the Hitler subject.

@Flashman:

I’m wondering to what extent German politics will be dictated by Hitler’s personal goals, rather than those the Germany player may wish to attain.

Specifically, will the German player be able to postpone the attack on Russia in order to follow the Mediterranean strategy favoured by some of his commanders, particularly the navy?

Opinion is divided as to the wisdom of this approach; on the one hand it may have accelerated US entry into the war before Russia had been dealt with; on the other the conquest of the Middle East would’ve provided direct entry into the Caucasus (from the south) making the invasion of the USSR a much easier proposition.

From what I read into comments so far the game has been designed to make the German-Soviet conflict pretty much automatic in a couple of turns, thus following Hitler’s idealogical obsession rather than what may have been a more sound strategy.

While Hitler’s invasion of the Soviet Union was consistent with his strong ideological antipathy towards communism, ideology was not the only motivating factor. IN 1940, Hitler found himself involved in an unproductive air and sea war with Britain, with the British producing aircraft at a faster pace than Germany. Add in American production shipped to Britain (which was considerable), and Hitler felt he had to do something to change the equation. Because long-term, the combined industrial strength of Britain and the U.S. would have crushed Germany.

Another factor was the British food blockade, which resulted in a severe food shortage in German-occupied Europe.

Hitler felt that the conquest of the Soviet Union would secure a sufficient food supply for Germany, access to raw materials, and would create a significant increase in Germany’s available workforce and industrial capacity. These things would allow him to meet British and American air efforts on a somewhat equal footing. In addition, Hitler felt (correctly) that Stalin would invade Germany sooner or later, so it would be better to get the inevitable war with the Soviets out of the way quickly, before they had the chance to build up.

However, the German general staff underestimated how militarized the Soviet Union actually was in 1941. They thought that the Soviet Army had only 200 divisions, and that the heart of that army could be encircled and destroyed in a relatively quick blitzkrieg operation. In fact, the Soviet Army consisted of 600 divisions in the spring of '41. The Soviets were also considerably further along in their industrialization and military production efforts than the Germans had realized, and outproduced Germany by a margin of 3:1 or 4:1 in nearly every category of land weapons in 1942. The Soviets even built twice as many military aircraft as Germany did that year.

In hindsight, it would have made more sense for Germany to have postponed its invasion of the Soviet Union to swallow up North Africa and the Middle East. That task would have required a strong Axis naval presence in the Mediterranean, good supply lines, cooperation with Italy, and several other factors. Postponing Barbarossa would also have given the German war industry time to catch up to that of the Soviet Union. (Which it did by 1944, both because of internal improvements to German industry, and because of Germany’s access to Slavic workers and other resources from its war in the east.)

Stalin saw both the Nazis and the Western democracies as equally his enemies. He hoped for a long, destructive war between the two sides–a war that would bleed both sides dry without involving the Soviet Union. Then, after both sides were depleted, the Soviet Army would move into Europe and pick up the pieces. Given this way of thinking, it is likely that Stalin would have left Hitler alone for several years, had Hitler chosen to focus on the Middle East. Stalin also knew that Britain could purchase large numbers of aircraft from the U.S., thereby balancing out any production losses it might experience from the loss of some of its Empire.

While ideological obsession was one driving factor, I don’t think any assessment of Hitler’s or Germany’s aims can underestimate the deeply etched impact of WW1 on the entire generation and their dreaded strategic nemesis: the two-front war.

Neutralizing Russia should have uber-NOs for Germany.