You think that France is going to fall that easily? Didn’t they have troops in Africa
You think that France is going to fall that easily? Didn’t they have troops in Africa
Larry said France will fall regardless, it just might take an extra turn if the dice arent on your side.
Yeah from the sound of it they will fall by turn 2 unless you deliberately avoid conflict with them.
You think that France is going to fall that easily? Didn’t they have troops in Africa
It won’t be a cake walk, but yea I think France will loose the Paris tt, and the French coast tt rd #1. The Paris tt should border West Germany (ouch), and the French coastal tt should boarder the low countries that will start out in German hands. The full blitzkrieg (tanks/tacs) should overwhelm the French (pending dice). I also think the Germans will have some inf on the front as well. Italy should be able to come in and take southern France (Vichy) on it first turn as well. The scattered French units in Africa will be more of a nuisance then anything just backing up UK (they can’t replenish). Same with the starting French fleet, I see it as a shell of what it actually was. I would expect the (allied) French fleet to reflect the reduction due to the UK attacking it, and much of it kept in port or scuttled.
Now that we know that the US or Russia can’t attack the Euro axis until rd #4 (unless provoked). The UK is really the only main focus. Japan wipes out China, Germany/Italy wipes out France. Then its UK’s turn.
Yea you have to make sure that you keep enough troops on the Russian boarder, but as the axis you can take your enemies to their knees one at a time. You almost have to attempt a Sea Lion, there is no one else to fight. You must at the very least kick them out of strategic areas, like the Med, Middle East, and Africa, but you can’t take a pass at London if it doable. This might be a kill UK first, then go for India once everyone is at war. Saying that, however, if UK falls its not game over, US/Russia will be powerhouses, but you have to take advantage of the delay for them to enter the game.
UK’s strategy will be as it is in Pac 40 (India), stay alive as long as you can and wait for your friends to bail you out (RD #4). The only difference is they will have more units, and may be able to delay the inevitable long enough for their allies to prevent their destruction. Either that or enough time to setup a quick liberation that they could be a part of.
Okay France is gone. UK, USSR and China are waiting for a bail out. That is going to make things rough on the US.
Yep, that’s pretty much what happened :-D If Japan hadn’t attacked Pearl/Philippines who knows? I think we would have figured some way to get our hands dirty though at some point.
@WILD:
Yep, that’s pretty much what happened :-D If Japan hadn’t attacked Pearl/Philippines who knows? I think we would have figured some way to get our hands dirty though at some point.
I am sure they already were dirty.
Hell, just holding UK from US/canadian counterattacks is going to be rough, as soon as wardec comes through. Pending the dice even let you take England.
I guess one could try to go big in the med and reduce UK to irrelevance, but probably takes too much time compared to a knockout blow. Yea another Russian Barbarossa argument…
Hell, even if Germany manages to conquer Russia, its going to be really difficult to overcome 80+ US IPCs and 50+ UK IPCs (w/ NOs) a round with naval units built from scratch in an Allied threatened Baltic. Hopefully Japan/Italy can take some of the pressure off, but without keeping an existing fleet stack alive throughout the game as a starter I dunno how it can be done.
Maybe it’ll be best to go all out for Russia G1 or G2 (after/while France is taken, of course)! If Germany is at Moscow’s doorstep Round 4 and US finally war decs it could be a very different type of game.
You wouldn’t necessarily have to hold UK after a successful Sea Lion strategy. The added income and the loss of UK income from taking the capitol would go a long way.
Hmmm… this brings up a neutrality rule:
Germany CAN attack Russia G1 and not have a US war dec, correct? I would assume isolationist US wouldn’t care if communism and fascism were trading death blows, so Germany could forgo the +5 Russia neutrality NO and go for moscow early on.
Japan SHOULD be able to attack Russia J1 if it really wanted to without a US war dec; there were border wars going on in manchuria all the time. I’m guessing Larry will put some extra Japan-Russo neutrality pact NO or fiat rule or something to keep Japan from attacking siberia when Germany needs it the most (like Japan can’t attack Russia unless Russia breaks neutrality first). In P40 Russia isn’t even represented so I’m guessing there’s going to be some rule like that in the Global version. I’d rather have no ACME walls in place, however. Remember, Germany had a non-aggression pact with Russia in 1940 (and we know how that went), there’s no reason to block Japan from entering Russia due to a piece of paper if they really wanted to invade.
Just wondering how these were going to fit into the global picture… May be best for Axis to go after Russia first since it will have the least amt of units/firepower with the most easily available resources AND it won’t activate the US war dec. Thinking there might be a SOVIET war economy that gets activated upon invasion, that might be interesting change to game.
Just wondering how these were going to fit into the global picture… May be best for Axis to go after Russia first since it will have the least amt of units/firepower with the most easily available resources AND it won’t activate the US war dec. Thinking there might be a SOVIET war economy that gets activated upon invasion, that might be interesting change to game.
That probably depends on the amount of starting units that Germany has at its disposal G1. Germany must be able to defeat France quickly without having to depend to much on lucky dice. So perhaps a G2, G3 attack on Russia is more viable.
An attack on Russia G1 all the while the Battle of France is still raging would also mean more or less ignoring the UK, right?
Well, if Sealion is after all unfeasible, why not get the party started early in Russia? That’s possibly 3 turns of built units Germany won’t have to fight through on the border, if there’s no Soviet war dec bonus. Some will probably argue that Germany isn’t built up enough yet for invading Russia G1, but then Russia won’t really be ready for war yet either. If Germany and Japan can gank 10-15 IPCs from Russia’s total economy the first few rounds before the US enters the war, it could be pivotal.
Might as well ignore Britain if you can’t KO the capital, right? I mean, there’s territories in the Middle East you can still go after, but building up a fleet in the Baltic for an improbable invasion scenario is asking for it. Usually what happens anyway, US comes in to help defend by round 1-2 so invasion is moot.
I’m not saying stop the invasion of France, just that there’s not much point in weakening Britain overmuch if you can’t take the capital. You’re just throwing expensive air and naval units at boats the UK can rebuild, over and over again (lol maybe hoping for paratroopers to roll).
Heh, this is twice (maybe three times) on this thread that I’ve argued myself out of Sealion now.
We now know Russia can’t attack the Euro axis til rd #4 (unless provoked). I believe it could go to war w/Jap at any time as there is no pact or rule to stop them (but will they want to?). There will be several pro (something) neutrals near the Russian boarders, will they be able to take them? The first couple of rounds will most likely see Germany, Italy and UK gobble them up, but will Russia be in on the fun (it has the 2nd turn).
I don’t see a large build-up at the boarder for the Germans/Russians. The Germans will need a rd or two to maneuver/build for a Barbarossa. They can do this as they destroy France, but will need to build more tanks from the beginning and reposition their air force after France Paris falls (the loot will come in handy). The Russians will be in def mode from the beginning on the Euro front, because they won’t be able to attack until rd #4 unless provoked (maybe Italy can screw this up). The Soviets will likely set up a week front line w/counter attack in position to kill the German front line tanks. There is also a lot of tt the Russians can make def withdraw through until they gain an advantage over a bogged down axis.
As I said I don’t think there will be a pact between Russia and Japan preventing them from going to war (per Larry), and both powers will have large forces on the boarders. We already know what Japan has, and I think Larry said something about 18 Russian units there. In a nut shell it would be costly to both of them to attack. The Japs will want to use that force to take out China & eventually UK, and the Russians I’m sure would like to bring the Siberians home to protect Moscow. It will be cool to see if they allow each other to withdraw, or if they will have to keep those large forces at least near the boarder. If Germany goes all out against Russia rd #3, I could easily see the Japs coming from the other way.
If you go full tilt against Russia early (rd #2-#3), I just think your letting UK off the hook. Once UK gets the full support of the US, it will be a very tough nut to crack. Russia/US can’t hurt you til round #4 (at your control), and the UK is isolated. Sea Lion may be to costly, but control of the sea’s around UK, the Med, Scandinavia, and much of the Mid East/Africa will be a pretty big axis advantage early on. If the opportunity comes up and you can take London even temporarily, it will set the allies back.
I’m not saying stop the invasion of France, just that there’s not much point in weakening Britain overmuch if you can’t take the capital. You’re just throwing expensive air and naval units at boats the UK can rebuild, over and over again (lol maybe hoping for paratroopers to roll).
Sea Lion may be determined to be to costly of a move (due to naval build-up needed). We won’t know til the game comes out in late Aug for sure to see what the starting German navy is. You still have an isolated UK that the Euro axis can double team for 3-4 rounds, how often can the axis do that. Its normally the other way around. If you can attack expensive UK/French ships w/cheap subs/DD’s and an over powering air force, you have to go for it. Control of the sea is very important to the axis Euro’s even if its just the first 4-5 rounds. If you are able to reduce the UK income to just the island (8-10 ipc’s) in Europe, and also not allowing the UK to get its NO, by taking most of its Euro assets that’s a rather large axis advantage. You know that parts of the UK (French) fleet(s) will be sitting ducks at the games start (it always is).
**Edit: Plus if you have control of the sea around England you don’t necessarily have to take the capital to further reduce its income, there are convoy zones. You may be able to reduce UK to just the Canadian ipc’s w/o taking London. Of course this will only work until the US comes over, but that could take awhile, and major US involvement in Europe could be better for a patient Japan.
I say strip what you can from UK rd 1-3, then start the invasion of Russia rd #3 at the earliest before they get to powerful. I wonder what the best round will be for Japan to start its invasions rd #3 as well?
@WILD:
As I said I don’t think there will be a pact between Russia and Japan preventing them from going to war (per Larry), and both powers will have large forces on the boarders. We already know what Japan has, and I think Larry said something about 18 Russian units there. In a nut shell it would be costly to both of them to attack. The Japs will want to use that force to take out China & eventually UK, and the Russians I’m sure would like to bring the Siberians home to protect Moscow. It will be cool to see if they allow each other to withdraw, or if they will have to keep those large forces at least near the boarder. If Germany goes all out against Russia rd #3, I could easily see the Japs coming from the other way.
If you go full tilt against Russia early (rd #2-#3), I just think your letting UK off the hook. Once UK gets the full support of the US, it will be a very tough nut to crack. Russia/US can’t hurt you til round #4 (at your control), and the UK is isolated. Sea Lion may be to costly, but control of the sea’s around UK, the Med, Scandinavia, and much of the Mid East/Africa will be a pretty big axis advantage early on. If the opportunity comes up and you can take London even temporarily, it will set the allies back.
Jesus Christ, Mary, and Joseph!!! 18 Russian units on the eastern border!!! I don’t even want to think about how many units are on the european front!
Well that permits two different options for the Axis:
1. Japan ignores them entirely and Russia gets 18 more units to throw at Germany around Round 4 when Barbarossa goes down. Even more of a reason for Germany to go after Russia G1 so they don’t have time to regroup at Moscow.
2. Japan attacks them J1 and ties down the Russian units on the eastern border (I’m assuming attacking Russia here will not lead to a global war dec…) Units get sucked in from various Japanese theaters but are replaced since UK and US aren’t involved in war yet, Japan can still finish off China and prepare for global war by Turn 4. Germany meanwhile doesn’t have to worry about 18 extra Russian units incoming as it merrily rolls through the Ukrainian countryside. If Russia ignores Japanese offensive, japan gets around 5-10 ipcs and has a small force threatening the east side of moscow…
Well, I’m sure Russia will be a tough nut to crack anyway. They didn’t call it Mother Russia for nothing.
I’m not sure England can be reduced to irrelevance (10-15 IPCs) in the first 3 turns before US war dec. Maybe with the split income UK will be around there after losing most of Africa, but I think that’s unlikely till around Turn 6 or 7, when America has already come in. There are also quite a few convoy zones that can be sub SBRed, I guess that could help. It would be nice if UK is reduced to 1-2 unit production for several rounds prior to Sealion (after 3-4 convoy zone attacks, bomber SBRs, Italy and Germany attacking Africa, etc.).
The political rules will make things interesting. I think so and frankly they were necessary. To not have included them in a 1940 start date game would have not been fulfilling and realistic at all. Unfortunately, they have caused some issues. Russia should start out as neutral vs the Euro axis, It does… but does it start out neutral vs Jap, sounds like they will. I have left this to the Japanese and Russian player to figure out between themselves. I think it’s kind of fun to have a bit of unpredictability on that front. I once conducted a big Japanese, basically an air attack, against a consolidated Russian position of some 18 infantry and never recovered as Japan. No surprise for sure, but it drove home that Russia is no pushover on that front and Japan is rather motivated to keep the peace. Also sounds like Russia/Jap can declare war on each other at any time, or not at all. That’s pretty much the case. However, it is important to point out that Russia cannot attack a Euro Axis until its turn 4. This is not to say that it can’t be at war with the Euro Axis before that moment. That depends on whether or not they are attacked by them.… Just because Russia is at war w/Germany, doesn’t necessarily mean it will be at war w/Japan. And like wise, just because Russia is at war with German and/or Italy doesn’t mean that its a war with Japan. They both (Japan and Russia) have good reasons to not mess with each other – at least not until their other pressing problems are resolved one way or the other. I would think that if Russian units move into UK/Chinese tt they would first have to declare war on Japan (like UK moving into China). In addition to normal restrictions, the Soviet Union may not move units into China (until at war with Japan of course). I also would think that if UK/Jap go to war (regardless who starts it) Russia will still have the option to stay out. It does…
Larry am I close on this, could you shed some light? I think I just did, will maybe I did.
Edit: Also if Russia is at war w/Germany will UK units be able to move into Russia, or will that also be an act of war against Jap for Russia to open her boarders? No this would not be an act of war against Japan by Russia or the UK. I’m not totally clear on this point anymore. Krieghund is the only person in the world who seems to know the definitive answers to these political basket of crabs questions. I think we should ask him (confirmed by Krieghund). :wink: In any case, the Russians and the Japanese can go to war for what ever reason they see fit. There ain’t nothing stopping em.
This is a Q & A I had w/Larry in early April. I’m not sure if Russia gets those 18 inf from the start in one tt (Amur), or where they are. I would imagine that they could be scattered about in Siberia, but could be consolidated quickly. With what Japan starts out with in Manchuria, Russia should have a pretty good deterrent.
Gleh, too much red text.
I sure hope Japan doesn’t do something stupid like total air attack against the Soviets J1, but I think with its setup in P40 it can conduct a serious amphibious landing or build-up in Manchuria against the Reds. Which could tie down those forces on Russia’s eastern border for a long time, helping Germany. Of course this takes away from Japan’s pacific conquests, but if Axis is going neutral till round 4 anyway…
Um, also, is there anything in the rules about the US attacking right out and activating its war mobilization itself?
Gleh, too much red text.
What is this the Book of Wild Bill in the New A&A Testament? Does he think he is our personal A&A savior?
@Brain:
Gleh, too much red text.
What is this the Book of Wild Bill in the New A&A Testament? Does he think he is our personal A&A savior?
It’s the words of Harris in Red edition.
