France

@WILD:

Yea, the US player will need something to do early in the game. Allowing him to control France would fill that void. I just hope he doesn’t get to used to getting his A$$ kicked.

I am sure it will be over quickly.

@johnnymarr:

If Larry doesn’t take into consideration Vichy France, then that will be a big blunder.

Per LH
FYI - After wrestling with this Vichy siht, I decided to skip the whole thing. France will be considered an ally power and that’s it. The confusion generated by the Vichy loyalty thing is just not worth the extra game steps. Also… perhaps I did not mention this but if and when France is liberated it reappears as a self-standing power with its own economy. The rule may end up providing France with an automatic influx of new units appearing on the board. - I’m still toying with this idea. It’s got to be simple and instinctive.

Aw, France should switch sides during the game, Marshal Petain in VF was a total German collaborator, probably worse than Quisling in Norway.  Vichy France paid millions of francs to “sustain occupying forces” for Germany (spoils), was totally controlled by the SS and was compliant in persecutions, plus there were some French who joined anti-communism divisions and definitely worked with the German authorities.

At this time in history, after the Great Depression of the 30’s, democracies were seen as inherently “weak” and prone to lacking the resolve to combat the helplessness caused by the failure of the world economic system.  Fascism was seen as a viable alternative to democratic governments ruled by the whims of public opinion and the depressed economy.  The rise of Nazi Germany was mostly done the same way that other governments got out of the depression, lots and lots of govt. spending, but you couldn’t tell that the rebuilding of Germany from WWI wasn’t ALL due to the switch to fascism.

At the beginning of WWII, Germany had just burst out of its borders and was seen as unstoppable in taking over all of Europe and possibly the world.  France at this junction was trying to make the most out of a bad situation and there were definitely willing collaborators trying to get as much out of the new world order as they could.  There was definitely some resistance, too, but for the most part the French realized they had been beaten and knew they had to go along with the Jerries for quite some time before help would come.

Let whichever side controls Paris have the French on their team!  The Free french could be under control of the British player, and if the Allies liberate Paris, have the dice rolled again to see if the territories revert back to Allied control!  Would be funny as hell to see France switch sides 3-4 times per game!

@SgtBlitz:

@johnnymarr:

If Larry doesn’t take into consideration Vichy France, then that will be a big blunder.

Per LH
FYI - After wrestling with this Vichy siht, I decided to skip the whole thing. France will be considered an ally power and that’s it. The confusion generated by the Vichy loyalty thing is just not worth the extra game steps. Also… perhaps I did not mention this but if and when France is liberated it reappears as a self-standing power with its own economy. The rule may end up providing France with an automatic influx of new units appearing on the board. - I’m still toying with this idea. It’s got to be simple and instinctive.

Aw, France should switch sides during the game, Marshal Petain in VF was a total German collaborator, probably worse than Quisling in Norway.  Vichy France paid millions of francs to “sustain occupying forces” for Germany (spoils), was totally controlled by the SS and was compliant in persecutions, plus there were some French who joined anti-communism divisions and definitely worked with the German authorities.

At this time in history, after the Great Depression of the 30’s, democracies were seen as inherently “weak” and prone to lacking the resolve to combat the helplessness caused by the failure of the world economic system.  Fascism was seen as a viable alternative to democratic governments ruled by the whims of public opinion and the depressed economy.  The rise of Nazi Germany was mostly done the same way that other governments got out of the depression, lots and lots of govt. spending, but you couldn’t tell that the rebuilding of Germany from WWI wasn’t ALL due to the switch to fascism.

At the beginning of WWII, Germany had just burst out of its borders and was seen as unstoppable in taking over all of Europe and possibly the world.  France at this junction was trying to make the most out of a bad situation and there were definitely willing collaborators trying to get as much out of the new world order as they could.  There was definitely some resistance, too, but for the most part the French realized they had been beaten and knew they had to go along with the Jerries for quite some time before help would come.

Let whichever side controls Paris have the French on their team!  The Free french could be under control of the British player, and if the Allies liberate Paris, have the dice rolled again to see if the territories revert back to Allied control!  Would be funny as hell to see France switch sides 3-4 times per game!

All this may be, but like he said it’s all for game balance.

I would tend to treat Vichy colonies as neutral; they will fight whoever attacks them.  You might have a similar system in place for British colonies in the event of the UK mainland falling, with perhaps Canada and A/NZ exceptions.

Only when all the French mainland areas are liberated do the Allies gain control of VF forces.  Or, if Germany decides to move in and garrison VF itself.

But how is VF actually set up in the first place; do the Germans automatically divide the country in two?  If so is southern i.e.Vichy France treated as per a colony, with it’s VF garrison and no Germans occupying or passing through?  This really needs surrender rules, whereby France is considered defeated even when holding mainland territories (e.g. if Paris falls?)

It really does seem unfair to treat France as if it’s fall is inevitable, and that of the other Allies impossible.  Same rules should apply to any defeated country, whatever we consider “defeat” to consist of.

gotta cook up a way to produce without your capital for countries like UK and Russia if moscow or london  falls

Larry is right, its complicated….and its going to spawn 6 different versions of house rules to do essentaly the same thing

@oztea:

gotta cook up a way to produce without your capital for countries like UK and Russia if moscow or london  falls

Larry is right, its complicated….and its going to spawn 6 different versions of house rules to do essentaly the same thing

Larrys rules wiil not do the same thing.

The vichy terrtroies had to be fought over and the french fleet will be retained by the allies instead of what accually happend which was the UK attacked the french fleet.

Its complietly ilogical and unhisotrical, you can say it works best for gameplay(which it dosnt, but you would have a better arguement) but their is no reason to say it has something to do with history.

the 6 versions of house rules will do the same thing as “eachother”, not the same thing as Larry’s rules, which will be ahistorical when it comes to France.

Just had to clarify that.

The various versions of house rules will adress the following to variying degrees

Who gets the French territories after the fall of Paris? A neutral power? Germany, The Allies?
What happens to the French Navy? Sinks? Axis? Allied?
Will another Axis power be created when France falls? When is it’s turn?, does it have NOs?

Larry’s treatment of the France issue is so bare bones that i STRONGLY SUSSPECT……no French units will be deployed outside of France…and the Axis will be able to quickly walk into Morocco Algeria, etc.

Im also thinking France/US might go first in Europe, both starting with very little. France builds a last ditch defense force with it’s ~12 IPCs and the US builds some stuff.

Maybe when Larry playtests the game he will find a sensible solution to Vichy France.

I see, sorry.

@oztea:

Im also thinking France/US might go first in Europe, both starting with very little. France builds a last ditch defense force with it’s ~12 IPCs and the US builds some stuff.

But the US wont be active in france during the first turn, they will still be at peace.

My prediction for the turn order in Europe is:

Germnay
Soviet Union
France
United States
Italy
United Kingdom

… and in the Global game:
Germnay
Soviet Union
France
Japan
United States
China
Italy
United Kingdom
ANZAC

@Brain:

Maybe when Larry playtests the game he will find a sensible solution to Vichy France.

hopefully

Maybe their could be a bid for the remaining territories between Germany and the closest ally to the territories in question.

Rather than handing them over, Yes.

I dont think italy will go before UK
that opens the can of worms of a two pronged attack on England by Germany then Italy

@oztea:

I dont think italy will go before UK
that opens the can of worms of a two pronged attack on England by Germany then Italy

How does this affect France?

They will become Germans…