G1 naval build?

@Upside-down_Turtle:

I feel a German fleet should build under the following conditions:

1. Extensive damage done to the UK Atlantic fleet on G1 and/or G2. 
2. Taking Korellia on G1.  This allows you build up to 3 ships per tern and still be able to commit at least 10 inf to Russia per tern v their 8.
3. NOs are being used.  Extra income is essential. 
4. Not a KGF game.  If UK and US are pimping out their Atlantic Fleets, they will overwhelm you, making a fleet a very bad long term investment, @ the least.

4. Germany doesn’t know if it’s going to be a KGF game until after G1.  After G1, the Baltic fleet is dead anyway.  German fleet build is for Sealion or Sealion threat only

I can’t really say I would support a german navy, but I could see buying a sub or 2 to be OK as you could use that in conjunction with an airforce to threaten/hold at bay the Allied navy.  Subs are cheap and hard to kill in a way, now I don’t know if you have the time to waste on building them but that is the only viable way I could see building any navel units for germany.

@cymerdown:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

I feel a German fleet should build under the following conditions:

1. Extensive damage done to the UK Atlantic fleet on G1 and/or G2. 
2. Taking Korellia on G1.  This allows you build up to 3 ships per tern and still be able to commit at least 10 inf to Russia per tern v their 8.
3. NOs are being used.  Extra income is essential. 
4. Not a KGF game.  If UK and US are pimping out their Atlantic Fleets, they will overwhelm you, making a fleet a very bad long term investment, @ the least.

4. Germany doesn’t know if it’s going to be a KGF game until after G1.  After G1, the Baltic fleet is dead anyway.  German fleet build is for Sealion or Sealion threat only

I agree.  Also, even if a game doesn’t start as a KGF, it can certainly become that if Germany gets too aggressive towards US and UK….or Moscow is about to fall.  :roll: Also, the fleet is bottled up in the Baltic to begin with.  Even if you can fight you’re way out, forget getting back.  The best thing is to link up with the Italian fleet.  You won’t last long in the open ocean, and that’s just the thing.  The purpose of a Navy is to control sections of an ocean, and Germany can never do that.

Geography is important.  Some countries just weren’t meant to have a fleet.  Germany and Russia aren’t sea goers.  Japan and UK are, and in fact, a fleet is vital for them, while a fleet is almost suicidal for Germany and Russia.

In a way, I think the whole question of having a German Navy answers itself:  “If you have to ask… NO!”

@Bardoly:

@bugoo:

Please note, I am not saying that a German Baltic fleet is a good idea, but if your going to do it, this is how I would pursue it and the reasons why.

G1: Purchase BB, DD, and 1 inf
Now why no carrier? Simple, the fleet i bought would give me another shore shot at 4, would survive the UK turn 1 air force, and would be good fodder against the UK fleet.  A carrier grants very little extra offensive capability in any way shape or form, and is easily destroyed by subs, or subs +air, and limits my G1 attacks on the UK fleet as my planes have to land on it.  I would also shuttle the 1 inf, 1 art to Finland on G1.  This forces Russia to pull back on R1 and grant me my 3rd NO even if they do take Baltic States (which with 7 inf, 1 art, and 1 arm you should attack there R1 almost every game.)

G2: Choose.
If the UK went air heavy, purchase however many destroyers it would take to ensure they loose most of there air power, or an AC.
-This buys you more time against the UK building a fleet, and usually gives you enough time to have enough airpower to keep there fleet at the bottom of the ocean.  Remember, UKs income goes down as the game goes on, yours goes up.  They have 1-2 turns to get something going, then they no longer matter typically.
If the UK went fleet heavy, purchase a destroyer a round and possibly extra transports.
-This allows you to hold Finland, Norway, and Karelia for most of the game as you are shuttling up infantry while sending in tanks to reinforce. It helps you maintain good trades with Russia for most of the game as you use inf+air deep in there territory. Meanwhile, Italy has some breathing room and can help hold the Russians back in the south.  Also, that fleet can latter be sacrificed with your air to sink the UK fleet when it becomes advantageous to do so.

The big thing is not to get caught into a ‘race to the larger fleet’ with the UK and to make sure Italy uses the extra time wisely.  Now yes this opens you up even more to a KGF from the allies, but thats why japan goes hulk smash.

Hmm, I’ve never really given much thought to a non-cv/non-ss G1 naval build.  One could always through down a cv or 2 on G2 or 3 if needed to beef up the fleet.  I like this thought.  +1 Karma

I’ve always gone with a CV build also.  The BB, DD build sounds interesting.  +1 Karma also!

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a couple subs if the opportunity presents itself.  You still threaten the allied fleet, they cost 4 less than a fighter, and they provide cheap fodder, plus they could back up the Italian navy if need be.  They’ll probably be hanging out in the Med sea just to be safe anyway.  On top of that they “cheapen” the value of defending carriers and there is a chance they can hit transports before your airplanes can.  I don’t know how many opportunities in a game Germany could build subs, but the concept is nice

My problem with subs is they defend at 1 and are useless as fodder against air attacks.  They don’t seem to be very useful in the Atlantic, i have had some success with them in the Pacific.

@Emperor:

@Bardoly:

@bugoo:

Please note, I am not saying that a German Baltic fleet is a good idea, but if your going to do it, this is how I would pursue it and the reasons why.

G1: Purchase BB, DD, and 1 inf
Now why no carrier? Simple, the fleet i bought would give me another shore shot at 4, would survive the UK turn 1 air force, and would be good fodder against the UK fleet.  A carrier grants very little extra offensive capability in any way shape or form, and is easily destroyed by subs, or subs +air, and limits my G1 attacks on the UK fleet as my planes have to land on it.  I would also shuttle the 1 inf, 1 art to Finland on G1.  This forces Russia to pull back on R1 and grant me my 3rd NO even if they do take Baltic States (which with 7 inf, 1 art, and 1 arm you should attack there R1 almost every game.)

G2: Choose.
If the UK went air heavy, purchase however many destroyers it would take to ensure they loose most of there air power, or an AC.
-This buys you more time against the UK building a fleet, and usually gives you enough time to have enough airpower to keep there fleet at the bottom of the ocean.  Remember, UKs income goes down as the game goes on, yours goes up.  They have 1-2 turns to get something going, then they no longer matter typically.
If the UK went fleet heavy, purchase a destroyer a round and possibly extra transports.
-This allows you to hold Finland, Norway, and Karelia for most of the game as you are shuttling up infantry while sending in tanks to reinforce. It helps you maintain good trades with Russia for most of the game as you use inf+air deep in there territory. Meanwhile, Italy has some breathing room and can help hold the Russians back in the south.  Also, that fleet can latter be sacrificed with your air to sink the UK fleet when it becomes advantageous to do so.

The big thing is not to get caught into a ‘race to the larger fleet’ with the UK and to make sure Italy uses the extra time wisely.  Now yes this opens you up even more to a KGF from the allies, but thats why japan goes hulk smash.

Hmm, I’ve never really given much thought to a non-cv/non-ss G1 naval build.  One could always through down a cv or 2 on G2 or 3 if needed to beef up the fleet.  I like this thought.  +1 Karma

I’ve always gone with a CV build also.  The BB, DD build sounds interesting.  +1 Karma also!

Yes, good idea, not going carrier.  My first AA50 game I bought a carrier. Worst A&A decission I’ve ever made.

Still, if feel the German fleet is just a pipe dream.  Yes, I played a game where Germany actually had more ships than US and UK in the Atlantic, but that was a heavy, KJF game. 
Hitler thought the Kaiser was stupid for building a fleet for several reasons:
1. It could be bottled up in the Baltic too easily. 
2. Just can’t compete w/ UK
3. Simply trying to compete w/ UK only got the UK pissed off, eventually leading to war.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the Fuhrer on this one.  A German fleet is waste of IPCs.  It will eventually get destroyed, period.  And what strategic objective would you have achieved?  None, just blowing up a few UK/US ships, which you could have done with air.  So what if it ties up Allied fleets and take them down with you?  The Allies can afford to trade units with you.  By building a fleet, you play into the Allies’ hands, because it distracts you from Russia, and forces you to trade units you can’t afford to trade.  Your goal is Moscow. 
Let me repeat it.

Key to Axis Victory:Moscow!!!

@Woodstock:

Yeah, but you’re Baltic fleet will be blown to bits. So what’s the point?
Well…that is exactly the point. I’m building units to fight. And if anyone tries to attack the Baltic fleet, that fleet will defend, and take down quite some expensive units. Units, that at least UK, are unable to replace easily, setting the Allies back a couple of rounds.
By then, the fleet has served it’s purpose.

Did Ger buy a DD?
If not, UK buys a bunch of subs (3-7 depending on threat and board layout) on UK 1.
G2 - Germany forced to buy at least 1 dd or lose surface ships to subs surprise attack.
Whether Ger buys a DD or not UK attacks with 3-7 subs (depends on UK 1 buy) and 2 ftrs, 1 bom.

The subs can only hit ships and UK can always manage its OOL to have 1-2 subs for a 2nd round attack to sink any AC.

@Emperor:

My problem with subs is they defend at 1 and are useless as fodder against air attacks.  They don’t seem to be very useful in the Atlantic, i have had some success with them in the Pacific.

I see little or no use to them for the allies, or Italy.  Japan and the US may have a need for them in the pacific.  Germany I find kind of unique.  If you get them in the Med, hell at least you have fodder to get better use of the Italian fleet (barring a massive air raid). On Germany’s T1 turn you can do an aggresive Tank build and have 6 left over, I think the 6 for the sub is a legit build in that situation, and after that start building planes when Germany is taking in more money.  But the subs defense isn’t so much it defends at 1 as much as it is hard to hit (destroyers needed) and if you are doing an Attack on the Allied navy with Air and subs you have good fodder with the added bonus of the nasty attack they carry.

I am not saying it is the best build, but it has some allure to me (maybe because I haven’t tried it yet).  The fact that they are 4 cheaper than planes, can tear through ships faster, pressure the Allied navy, and “cheapen” carriers, act as Air Raid Fodder,  act as Italian navy fodder, and are hard to hit so have realitvly free movement, really makes a sporadic sub appealing to me.  However going hog wild on subs (I see no way someone could build more than 3 in a normal game and justify it) is a sure fire way to lose for Germany

@Woodstock:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Yes, good idea, not going carrier.  My first AA50 game I bought a carrier. Worst A&A decission I’ve ever made.

Still, if feel the German fleet is just a pipe dream.  Yes, I played a game where Germany actually had more ships than US and UK in the Atlantic, but that was a heavy, KJF game. 
Hitler thought the Kaiser was stupid for building a fleet for several reasons:
1. It could be bottled up in the Baltic too easily. 
2. Just can’t compete w/ UK
3. Simply trying to compete w/ UK only got the UK pissed off, eventually leading to war.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the Fuhrer on this one.  A German fleet is waste of IPCs.  It will eventually get destroyed, period.  And what strategic objective would you have achieved?  None, just blowing up a few UK/US ships, which you could have done with air.  So what if it ties up Allied fleets and take them down with you?  The Allies can afford to trade units with you.  By building a fleet, you play into the Allies’ hands, because it distracts you from Russia, and forces you to trade units you can’t afford to trade.  Your goal is Moscow. 
Let me repeat it.

Key to Axis Victory:Moscow!!!

Key to Axis Victory:Moscow!!!

True.
But whoever said that the Germans have to take Moscow? With each and every game I have won as the Axis, Moscow was taken by the Japanese.

Let me explain my rationale:

Almost everyone here plays the Race for Moscow with Germany vs Race for Berlin with USA/UK strategy.

What I try to achieve is break that habit, as that strategy has quite the odds to go wrong for the Axis.
Thus, I build a German navy. And here’s why.

Situation 1: Allies go full KGF.
Let them come. With Germany not focusing too much on Russia, that is one tough nut to crack. Especially if they have to deal with a decent German navy aswell.
Played well, the Allies are gonna be needing at least 6 turns before they can even pose a decent (and continous!) threat to the German shores. (Imagine what Germany can put in land, sea and air in 6 turns, and then count what the Allies can do in those 6 turns, with Japan snatching IPC’s from them everywhere).

By that 6th turn, Japan is knocking on Moscow’s doors.

Yeah, but you’re Baltic fleet will be blown to bits. So what’s the point?
Well…that is exactly the point. I’m building units to fight. And if anyone tries to attack the Baltic fleet, that fleet will defend, and take down quite some expensive units. Units, that at least UK, are unable to replace easily, setting the Allies back a couple of rounds.
By then, the fleet has served it’s purpose.

Situation 2: Allies see my Baltic built, and go KJF.
Great, I’ll go and play with UK. Good luck pulling off a KJF while UK is under heavy fire. Or I use the fleet to form a quick bridge to Karelia. Even better.

Yes, Japan takes Moscow in KGF.  The thing is, if you really want to take pressure off Japan, you’re best bet is to go hard for Moscow, not build a fleet.  The best a large fleet can do scare the allies away towards Japan.  Then what, blockade UK, b/c it’s can’t drop a huge fleet due to protecting its Empire via India, South Africa, Australia ICs?  Germany can’t invade UK unless UK is stupid, or till it has already taken Moscow, and by then, its Game Over.

Yes, you can potentially clear the Atlantic with a huge fleet, but so can a huge air force, which doesn’t have to sit idle during a KJF game.

I have a hard time understanding how the Axis could survive with people advocate building expensive fleets for both Germany AND Italy.  It seems some people are just obsessed with building fleets.  An airplane is more verstile and cost effective.  Not to mention buying fleets= money not beeing sent to kill Russia= literally, buying the Allies time.

The Allies HAVE to have an unskinable fleet, you can not count on a strategy to sink it. If you sink it it means the Allies have: already either dealt their death blow, made a mistake in calculation, or you experienced incredible luck.  In other words if the fleet goes down it is due to an Allied error not a superior German strat.  The Allies can only blame themselves (or god awful luck) if their fleet gets sunk.  This is just the way the game is designed.  You are better off directing the West to waste their transport drops, screwing around with them a little in Africa for example, you should relish moments when large Allied forces are in Africa with little Axis forces in Africa (Remember the Japs can have a little fun here too).  I would even say, if it sets them back for 2 turns and higher materiel costs, entice them into trading W Europe.  Depend more on the allies making these mistakes than a mistake with them getting their fleet sunk, as the Axis are going to still be building much more valuable ground or air units.

Kill Russia, worry about sending just enough to the West or Africa to keep you alive, those are your secondary theaters.  Every other piece of land you take, kill you make, or defensive bolstering you do should be seen as a “neccesary evil” for killing Russia.  If need be, you should even sacrifice Italy or maybe even W Europe (And if Japan has turned into a monster and is going to deliver the killing blow, even Germany itslef) if it means you can Kill Russia.  Because of this, I don’t see navy building as an optimal strat for the Western Axis (Japan works a bit different).

@Woodstock:

@dondoolee:

I have a hard time understanding how the Axis could survive with people advocate building expensive fleets for both Germany AND Italy.

I have a bunch of old TripleA games on my hard drive that could make you help understand? ;-)

It seems some people are just obsessed with building fleets.  An airplane is more verstile and cost effective.  Not to mention buying fleets= money not beeing sent to kill Russia= literally, buying the Allies time.

I am not obsessed with buying fleets, I just really…really hate an empty Baltic sea. This gives the UK a whole lot of territories to land on.
And as I said before: Russia is for Japan. My goal with Germany is to survive untill Japan reaches Moscow. A lot more secure then the Race to Moscow with Germany vs Race to Berlin with Allies - kind of games.

1. Wouldn’t fighters/bombers/a couple of well placed subs be more useful/versitile/cost effective?

2. If the allies see you buying fleets with Germany, doesn’t that send off a couple of triggers for them?  For example, they can afford to be less aggresive on Germany and priority #1 is to tie up Japan (which can be done) while Russia gets breathing room because you built fleets with the Western Axis?  Buying an IC in SAF and sitting on the rest of the money for T2 for example on the UK’s first move.  Or maybe they can even be hyper aggressive in the west now that Russia has more breathing room.  Maybe forgetting Africa all together and just gunning straight for Germany which now has less ground units and an inferior fleet (unless the allies screwed up).  The German fleet doesn’t have to be sunk, I can still land in France or funnel through Norway.

Even if I am wrong, as a German player I would feel like I was “showing my hand” if I built fleet with them.  In AAR Germany could (and I always did) build 2 Trannies in the baltic, which bolsterd defense and gave great flexibilty (You could bring the navy to the edge of the med and really force the UK to build ground troops; funny stuff), In AA50 I just do not see much use for capital ships and Germany, I see an inflexible strat and a gigantic signal that the Allies will figure out and exploit eventually.

@Woodstock:

Maybe forgetting Africa all together and just gunning straight for Germany which now has less ground units and an inferior fleet (unless the allies screwed up).  The German fleet doesn’t have to be sunk, I can still land in France or funnel through Norway.

…

…with on both options placing your fleet in range of mine, thus making it a juicy target. Even if Ger loses it’s entire fleet then, it will set back the Allies back to square one.
Except, in this square one, they have less money, whereas Germany has more then the original first square.

If my fleet got hurt that bad I would consider that “the allies screwing up”.  It means I moved them and put of place to soon/miscalculated/had awful awful luck.  It should be assumed the allies are not putting their fleet in harms way unless it is strong enough to be in harms way and there isn’t much the Axis can do about it, either that or they are desperate in which case you are winning anyway.  If the allies are strong in the Atlantic that is their job and #1 function, to have an unconquerable fleet that knows the strength and position of everything the Axis can throw at it .  You just have to count on that as an Axis player. And the greater you strengthen your fleet the more you weaken your Eastern front.

Did not read the entire thread but in all games I played as Germany, turn 1 the UK are left with 1 destroyer and 1 transport off the shore of Canada.

• Bomber/fighter/submarine to sink UK’s BB/T
• Submarine/2 fighters to sink UK’s cruiser/T
• Cruiser/submarine/fighter to sink destroyer/transport

Half the time I’m left with most of my units forcing the RAF to commit to sink cruiser.

So how it is wrong to purchase 1 sub in thoses conditions? Turn 1, UK fleet is pretty much whipped. Adding a sub force them to think hard.

I’ve tried other openings but that one was the best by far even considering egypt. I’m of the opinion it is easier to take S.Africa with Japan anyways and use Italian fleet to weaken russians with shore bombardment in Ukraine Caucasus the 2 first turns. By turn 3, I usually go all out and whipe egypt. I don’t feel thoses 5 ipcs worth rushing it when it is really easy to slowly choke it.

Consider that turn 1, Home fleet is whiped. UK has no way to get there short of weakening India. So they need to rebuild fleet turn 1, by turn 2 it is usally not in range to do anything, turn 3 is normally when they finally have a defendable force in atlantic but it’s too late for Africa.

I did not played enough games to generalise but contrary to revised edition, I beileive Germany has better options in the sea with her submarines, specially if using bombers to support them later on. ( even if sea is blocked by destroyer, you can still kill it and move some reserve subs in non combat to make it to open atlantlic where they become a pain). It’s no as easy for UK now since it cannot use it’s transports as fodder. Makes a huge difference.

@Woodstock:

Obviously, fair enough.

That makes me realise two things.

1. I either had sucky Allied opponents

or

2. I managed to weaken my Eastern front just enough to hold the Russians back, but still provide a decent threat to any navy reaching the European shores.

I know I have been and will still be on occasion, that sucky Allied opponent who gets his ships blown up due to bad planning.  I think most of us have.  Let’s say building a navy does provide a decent threat to stall the west enough for Russia to fall to the Japs, is it still the most cost effective and effecient way to do it?  With Germanys ltd production and massive amounts of money, it will be building some “big money units” it almost has to, turtuling is kind of hard in this game.  But on the 1st turn, she doesn’t have that big money so that makes T1 look like a bad turn to build a navy to me

the Bomber: this guy has insane range, if you put him on france the US has to make sure it’s trannys are protected on the East coast.  He has a attack of 4, he can back up troops trading spaces on the Eastern front, pressure the Allied fleet, and in his spare time do an SBR to either England or Russia.  This seems more diverse, aggresive, and in it’s own right more defensive and a better buy than a german navy.

The fighter:  With germanys ltd production capacity you may as well be building these anyway to maximise on defense.  On top of that they threaten the allied fleet for very cheap (attack at 3 for only 10 IPCs) and with better range than any boat.  Plus they directly defend your land at a 4.  They can also back up German ground units on the Eastern front.

The Submarine:  I am still a little iffy on these but i still say this is the best naval unit Germany can buy (though I still think it is optional).  The submarine has free movement (he can’t be blocked so easily) to get where you want him to go.  This guy can make America think twice about putting up a transport if he is moved into postion at an oportune time.  He can also re enforce the Italian Navy as a cheap piece of fodder.  On top of which for a price of 6 IPC’s his attack is better/just as good as a cruisers and he can tear through ships (to get to transports) fater and “cheapen” the value of carriers. And if you get to make an attack on the Allied fleet you now have fodder.  I think if you build anything more than 3 subs you are probably building too much, these builds are kind of “luxury builds”.

All of these units are aggresive (good stuff for the axis) while defending at the same time, and I think more cost effective than capital ships.  They are more flexible, and if the Allied player does screw up you can make him pay.  Unlike a carrier which has no attack value, or a cruiser which is 2 IPC’s more than a fighter with less rang, probably stuck to 1 or 2 seazones and serving a ltd role (just protection) and certainly for the purpose of the Axis inferior to 2 subs.