After Action Reports

USA subs early keeps Japan consolidated, makes her buy some DD’s.  Slows her growth at a minimal cost to USA.  USA can help in africa, but I have been toying with a way to eliminate the Italian fleet on UK 2, regardless of what the axis do unless they take AES G1… but then the UK SZ2 fleet would live and be a pest that way.

Germany needs to pick her poison (sz2 or AES).  I am still not sure which is worse?
Many contend a softening of AES is enough, but I am not so sure.

The key to the axis (early) is Italy, if she can get going, it will be an uphill battle for the allies.

@axis_roll:

but I have been toying with a way to eliminate the Italian fleet on UK 2, regardless of what the axis do unless they take AES G1… but then the UK SZ2 fleet would live and be a pest that way.

Germany needs to pick her poison (sz2 or AES).  I am still not sure which is worse?
Many contend a softening of AES is enough, but I am not so sure.

The key to the axis (early) is Italy, if she can get going, it will be an uphill battle for the allies.

The UK 1 bomber build works very well. I’ve done it twice and I was extremely satisfied with the results. The problem that arises is that when Germany uses the bomber in sz2(instead of Egypt) and clears sz12 the UK can have a hard time getting it’s navy off the ground early if Germany builds at least 1 aircraft every turn because the UK will begin to rapidly lose income and with such a big head start by the German air force the US will have to bolster the UK fleet.

As a trade off, I like it. Nothing hurts the Axis more than losing the Italian fleet before they can really do any damage in Africa.

Couple that with the UK using it’s remaining bombers(after sinking the Italian fleet) to raid the Italian factory with the US picking up the slack as the UK bombers fall to AA and Italy will have a hard enough time defending itself let alone helping Germany against Russia.

@U-505:

@axis_roll:

but I have been toying with a way to eliminate the Italian fleet on UK 2, regardless of what the axis do unless they take AES G1… but then the UK SZ2 fleet would live and be a pest that way.

Germany needs to pick her poison (sz2 or AES).  I am still not sure which is worse?
Many contend a softening of AES is enough, but I am not so sure.

The key to the axis (early) is Italy, if she can get going, it will be an uphill battle for the allies.

The UK 1 bomber build works very well. I’ve done it twice and I was extremely satisfied with the results. The problem that arises is that when Germany uses the bomber in sz2(instead of Egypt) and clears sz12 the UK can have a hard time getting it’s navy off the ground early if Germany builds at least 1 aircraft every turn because the UK will begin to rapidly lose income and with such a big head start by the German air force the US will have to bolster the UK fleet.

As a trade off, I like it. Nothing hurts the Axis more than losing the Italian fleet before they can really do any damage in Africa.

Couple that with the UK using it’s remaining bombers(after sinking the Italian fleet) to raid the Italian factory with the US picking up the slack as the UK bombers fall to AA and Italy will have a hard enough time defending itself let alone helping Germany against Russia.

I totally agree with you, especially regarding the trade off (sink one navy before building your own)

My one tweak on the UK2 attack on the Italian navy involves Gibralter as a staging area for the UK ftrs on UK1.  Not a ground breaking strategy as I know others have employed that as a base.  I believe our play group will be leaning towards a G1 IC buy in France as it allows a Germany navy build G2 to help keep the Italian navy on top of the water instead of below it.  However, I think that cost will be hard for Germany to bear as it would be $15 G1 and most likely at least $14 (a/c) G2 to save the Med Axis navy in SZ13.

@axis_roll:

Germany needs to pick her poison (sz2 or AES).  I am still not sure which is worse?
Many contend a softening of AES is enough, but I am not so sure.

The more I see of the strength of the Allies, the more I’d say Egy is FAR MORE important.  I’m very close to saying that if Ger lets the UK ftr live it is almost game over.

The amount of pressure the Allies can bring on Afr and Europe in rds 1-4 is just too great and that is assuming the Egy ftr dies, but if that thing lives to flee, ouch.

@DarthMaximus:

@axis_roll:

Germany needs to pick her poison (sz2 or AES).  I am still not sure which is worse?
Many contend a softening of AES is enough, but I am not so sure.

The more I see of the strength of the Allies, the more I’d say Egy is FAR MORE important.  I’m very close to saying that if Ger lets the UK ftr live it is almost game over.

The amount of pressure the Allies can bring on Afr and Europe in rds 1-4 is just too great and that is assuming the Egy ftr dies, but if that thing lives to flee, ouch.

One ftr is THAT important?

I guess our gaming group hasn’t seen that yet.

Yes.  :-D

No, it is the domino effect that follows.  It just so happens the ftr is the last casualty in Egy.  I’d say the same thing if it were an arm or two.  Egy is the key moreso then the unit.
It is just like in Classic or Revised, the Axis need Egy in rd 1.  More specifically for AA50 the Axis need Ger to clear Egy.  Otherwise Italy is crippled rather quickly.  UK stack Per on UK 1 (~5 inf, 1 rt, egy arm ftr if survive) builds Sz 8 fleet, moves 2 inf to Rho from Safr.  UK 2 can potentially move Heavy to Trj (or wait in Per for another turn) while UK drops 4 units to Alg.  US follows with 4 units to Alg + 4 ftrs, 2 boms.  Ita fleet dies in Rd 3 and Axis never get beyond SUD.  Germany will never be able to push through Russia and Rome is immediately threatened from Sz 12 and Alg landings.
Major Adv Allies.  Japan is irrelevant.  By the time they get to Mos (rd 6-7) Ger and Ita have been boxed in for two rds.  Now it is the 3 Allies vs. Japan.

AA50 is no different then Classic or Revised.  :-)

@DarthMaximus:

Yes.   :-D

No, it is the domino effect that follows.  It just so happens the ftr is the last casualty in Egy.  I’d say the same thing if it were an arm or two.  Egy is the key moreso then the unit.
It is just like in Classic or Revised, the Axis need Egy in rd 1.  More specifically for AA50 the Axis need Ger to clear Egy.  Otherwise Italy is crippled rather quickly.  UK stack Per on UK 1 (~5 inf, 1 rt, egy arm ftr if survive) builds Sz 8 fleet, moves 2 inf to Rho from Safr.  UK 2 can potentially move Heavy to Trj (or wait in Per for another turn) while UK drops 4 units to Alg.  US follows with 4 units to Alg + 4 ftrs, 2 boms.  Ita fleet dies in Rd 3 and Axis never get beyond SUD.  Germany will never be able to push through Russia and Rome is immediately threatened from Sz 12 and Alg landings.
Major Adv Allies.  Japan is irrelevant.   By the time they get to Mos (rd 6-7) Ger and Ita have been boxed in for two rds.  Now it is the 3 Allies vs. Japan.

AA50 is no different then Classic or Revised.   :-)

I do not agree that the FTR is so important as is the reducing of the UK unit in Anglo-Egypt on G1.

J1, 3 loaded tpts and a full carrier (and maybe a cruiser) should be able to hit Trans Jordan J2 before UK can sink the Italian navy UK2.  In this sensem the UK  ftr is not as critical as one might think.

@DarthMaximus:

It is just like in Classic or Revised, the Axis need Egy in rd 1.  More specifically for AA50 the Axis need Ger to clear Egy.  Otherwise Italy is crippled rather quickly.

Anglo-Egypt is very important turn 1, I agree.  Only once in our FTF gaming group have we forgone SZ2 G1 attack with the bomber.  Germany actually took A-E on G1.  Germany also developed Jet ftrs on G1 with 3 researchers.

However, the Axis still lost.  Yes, the allies got some rolls in their favor that might have ended it much quicker than it could have been for the axis.  The UK navy was built UK1 and ruled the Atlantic from round one on…. trading France every turn, and with USA getting into the mix, Northwest Europe and Norway too.  UK had too much money for Germany too handle, and the US small but effective pacific investment bother Japan just enough to keep them several turns from threatening Moscow.

We agreed the axis mis-played the control of France, and future games may prove that the UK BB in sz2 is NOT the anchor to victory that she proved in this match.

The only thing I know for sure is that this game is very nicely balanced.  :-)  :-)  :-)

@TG:

The next time you guys play as UK, I want a detailed AA report of how you implemented this strategy and what the results were for you. ;)

As requested….

Germany bought the IC G1 but didn’t try to attack Anglo-Egypt G1 as has been the history of our playing group.  Because of this trend, I developed the UK ftr base in Gibralter plan.  UK purchased an IC for Anglo-Egypt UK and 2 bombers.  Germany did indeed add to the navy in sz13 on G2 (2 DD and a/c).  This was costly but did save the Med navy as the allies figured it was best to move into Anglo-egypt strong and invest in a navy of their own in SZ2.  A desperation push on moscow (via an italian tank opening) by Germany on turn 3 failed since US developed long range US 2 to cover Russia with an additonal ftr and bomber.

@axis_roll:

J1, 3 loaded tpts and a full carrier (and maybe a cruiser) should be able to hit Trans Jordan J2 before UK can sink the Italian navy UK2.  In this sensem the UK  ftr is not as critical as one might think.

That would be an interesting opening. Do you ignore the Philippines to do that?

@U-505:

@axis_roll:

J1, 3 loaded tpts and a full carrier (and maybe a cruiser) should be able to hit Trans Jordan J2 before UK can sink the Italian navy UK2.  In this sensem the UK  ftr is not as critical as one might think.

That would be an interesting opening. Do you ignore the Philippines to do that?

Yes.  This puts max pressure underneath (Indian Ocean) and really limits what UK can do (India / Australia).  In fact, quite a few times both India and Persia (or Transjordan/Anglo-Egypt are attacked J2.

I know the Philipines are a $14 IPC swing by waiting until J2, but other targets are more important J1.  The US DD and Tpt are sunk by the BB on J1.

@axis_roll:

Yes.  This puts max pressure underneath (Indian Ocean) and really limits what UK can do (India / Australia).  In fact, quite a few times both India and Persia (or Transjordan/Anglo-Egypt are attacked J2.

I know the Philipines are a $14 IPC swing by waiting until J2, but other targets are more important J1.  The US DD and Tpt are sunk by the BB on J1.

Losing the money doesn’t bother me so much as 3 TP’s going to sz34 on J2 means that they would be 3 turns away from the Japanese IC so you’d probably have to build an IC near them and/or build a lot of extra TP’s for unloading from Japan.

Normally, I like to have 6 total Japanese TP’s (4 for Japan, 2 for the Pacific and later Africa) and the Japanese income soars so quickly that I find myself having trouble building IC’s fast enough to keep up with the vast numbers of infantry I’m able to afford to produce so building any more than 1 new TP seems wasteful to me. I suppose the extra income from clearing the Middle East and Africa quicker would offset the cost of buying new TP’s, but I’d have to see it in action to convince me to change my J1 opening.

And on a side note, I have been thinking about moving 2 Russian inf from Kaz to Per on R1. My usual Russian build when Egypt stays in UK hands after G1 is 5 inf, 1 arm, 1 fig with the fighter and armor being built in Caucasus to help reinforce Trans-Jordan in preparation for the UK1 bomber build in case only the UK fighter survives the attack. The reason I’ve been thinking about moving the 2 inf is because Trans-Jordan is subject to Italian and German suicide attacks with what’s left in Africa to soften it up for a Japanese landing and 1 fighter, 1 arm from Russia might not be enough to hold it. And if it becomes clear that even the 2 inf won’t be enough to help the UK hold T-J, then I’ve only diverted them away from the German front by one move so I haven’t really hurt myself very much.

@U-505:

@axis_roll:

Yes.  This puts max pressure underneath (Indian Ocean) and really limits what UK can do (India / Australia).  In fact, quite a few times both India and Persia (or Transjordan/Anglo-Egypt are attacked J2.

I know the Philipines are a $14 IPC swing by waiting until J2, but other targets are more important J1.  The US DD and Tpt are sunk by the BB on J1.

Losing the money doesn’t bother me so much as 3 TP’s going to sz34 on J2 means that they would be 3 turns away from the Japanese IC so you’d probably have to build an IC near them and/or build a lot of extra TP’s for unloading from Japan.

Normally, I like to have 6 total Japanese TP’s (4 for Japan, 2 for the Pacific and later Africa) and the Japanese income soars so quickly that I find myself having trouble building IC’s fast enough to keep up with the vast numbers of infantry I’m able to afford to produce so building any more than 1 new TP seems wasteful to me. I suppose the extra income from clearing the Middle East and Africa quicker would offset the cost of buying new TP’s, but I’d have to see it in action to convince me to change my J1 opening.

What is your normal J1 buy?  We have been adding 2 more transports so as to allow the SZ34 transports and SZ38 (East Indies) transport to go to Africa / Australia.

@U-505:

And on a side note, I have been thinking about moving 2 Russian inf from Kaz to Per on R1. My usual Russian build when Egypt stays in UK hands after G1 is 5 inf, 1 arm, 1 fig with the fighter and armor being built in Caucasus to help reinforce Trans-Jordan in preparation for the UK1 bomber build in case only the UK fighter survives the attack. The reason I’ve been thinking about moving the 2 inf is because Trans-Jordan is subject to Italian and German suicide attacks with what’s left in Africa to soften it up for a Japanese landing and 1 fighter, 1 arm from Russia might not be enough to hold it. And if it becomes clear that even the 2 inf won’t be enough to help the UK hold T-J, then I’ve only diverted them away from the German front by one move so I haven’t really hurt myself very much.

And if you do not do that (move to T-J), you can always move an inf or two into india R2, making Japan commit some units to taking India.  I usually w/d the UK india units to Persia and set-up a counter-attack if possible.  I noticed last game that my UK bomber can make it all the way to rhodesia (and be safe there).  This allows the bomber to hit India and land in persia.  I think the extra $5 NO for Russia for no allied units in Russia is a big thing not too hard to accomplish, at least for the first two or more turns.

Russia’s roll in Asia is way different in 1941.  Since Japan’s turn follows Russia, you can not cover Russia units that have counter-attacked advancing Japanese units with UK’s air force.  this is a huge difference in the dynamics for the Japanese tank dash.

My normal J1 buy is an IC in FIC to get the ball rolling down south and J2 I build an IC in Burma if I hold it.

@axis_roll:

The only thing I know for sure is that this game is very nicely balanced.   :-)  :-)  :-)

I’ll agree for the case of multiplayer games, certainly if you are playing with 4-6 players then yes, esp with Tech since that always offers the trailing side a miracle option.

Date:  Feb 11, 2009
special rules:  NOs
Victor:  Allies by concession
Game Length:  6 turns
Bias:  souL v. Uberlager… I don’t know exactly but I certainly could have played better.
Description:  Total and utter failure in the Atlantic theater.  The Germans lost 3 battles in round 1, including to the two inf in Epoland, Egypt, and SZ 12.  Italy also failed to take Egy when it was reinforced.  This, of course, is a recipe for the Allies to do what they like to Germany.  Lots of fume and bluster but couldn’t not save Germany in time.  Resignation after the stark realization that the Allies landed the final financial blow in France at the end of turn 5 and wasn’t going back under Axis control.

Seems like the axis have a slight advantage in the -41 scenario, using NO’s, and also tech, but then I believe that tech shouldn’t be considered a factor (in this matter) since both sides will usually get an equal amount of favorable techs, and also some players will get tech early, and others late in the game. The tech/luck factor will even out if enough games are played, and it seems playing balance has come to a conclusion, even if it’s fully possible that the trends of the empirical data will change in the future.

With over 50 games played it seems like allies have a hard time, I think this is mainly because of the NO’s. While G+Jap have an easy time collecting NO’s, allies have problems getting most of the NO’s, specially early in the game. The 10 ipc Russian NO are particularly difficult until several rounds into the game.

To me it seems like allies need bid in -41 with NOs. I think we will soon have players demanding bids, or demanding to play axis.
Even if I don’t played as many AA50 games to say for sure that axis have advantage, I will not play allies in -41 with NOs without a bid.
Playing without NO’s, I think allies may have an advantage in the -41 scenario.