AA50 Rules Errata and Q+A

Bummer.

So an AA in Persia, doesn’t protect Cauc/Kaz from J ftrs in Sz 34?

Wow.

@DarthMaximus:

Bummer.

So an AA in Persia, doesn’t protect Cauc/Kaz from J ftrs in Sz 34?

Wow.

That’s right.  It was one of the MAJOR changes from the Revised edition.

Wish I knew it a little earlier.  Lol!

@Global-commander:

@Krieghund:

No.

thank you, that’s good to know.

in 1942 set up, is solomen Islands considered an original jap territory since they start the game controlling it?

@Global-commander:

@Global-commander:

@Krieghund:

No.

thank you, that’s good to know.

in 1942 set up, is solomen Islands considered an original jap territory since they start the game controlling it?

No.  You go by what is printed on the map (so original territories are the same in 1941 and 1942).  It is an original UK territory, and won’t count for that NO.

Could someone please answer this question:

Setup:
there is a japanese fleet in Z36 with a destroyer
there are japanese ground units on FIC
the USA owns PHI
the USA puts a submarine in Z36 during noncombat

Question:  on the Japanese turn, can the Japanese use the destroyer to attack the submarine AND load units to a transport from Z36 to attack PHI?

As I read the rules, if the Japanese ignore the USA submarine, they can load units in Z36 during the combat phase.

Cheers

Yes.  Enemy subs can always be ignored during movement when there are no enemy surface warships present.

But is it possible that the US moves a sub in sz36 during NCM, since there is a destroyer, I guess it cancels the sub ability no ?

Subs can always move into or out of a sea zone containing an enemy destroyer.  They may not move through one, as their movement stops when they enter such a zone.

Even Yoshi didn’t know that rule.  That was a big eye opener when you clarified it on the 1940 thread, Kevin.  I don’t think there are very many players that understand you can move a sub into a zone with an enemy destroyer, during noncombat.  It’s good that this has come up in both threads.

So, does this mean that a sub can always dive?
In other words, the DD’s presence does not negate the ability to dive.

that is the only way to explain how a sub can move into a SZ in NCM:  diving avoids any combat.

I also do not get the point ; it looks like one more special rule to me… what’s the logic behind ?

@axis_roll:

So, does this mean that a sub can always dive?
In other words, the DD’s presence does not negate the ability to dive.

that is the only way to explain how a sub can move into a SZ in NCM:  diving avoids any combat.

It has nothing to do with submerging.  It has to do with moving in noncombat movement.  If a sub wants to fight, it moves into the sea zone in combat movement.  If it doesn’t, it moves in noncombat movement.  Submerging means escaping combat once the battle begins, not avoiding it entirely.  If a sub wants to avoid a fight when moving, it simply doesn’t make its presence known, which means moving in noncombat.

A sub must stop when entering a sea zone with an enemy destroyer not because it can’t submerge there (which it can’t), but because the destroyer’s ability to detect the sub forces it to be more slow and cautious in its movement.  The rule concerning a sub stopping in a sea zone with a destroyer deals with movement phases only, while the submerging rules deal with the combat phase only.

As to people not knowing this rule, I’m not I understand that.  It’s clearly stated in the Rulebook.  The only explanation I can think of is that it’s “baggage” from previous games’ rules.

I think that part of the confusion in this issue lies with the term “submerge” itself.  I regret that it was ever used.  It (rightfully) has a connotation of submarines moving under the surface.  However, it game terms it simply means diving deep to escape combat.  I would have preferred the term “disengage”, but it’s too late to change it now.

But there is an underlying rule that non combat movements can not result in any combat.  I believe this is the rule that is causing the confusion.

The sole exception being tpt and subs, which can always be ignored.

I would THINK that moving a sub into a SZ with an enemy destroyer would create a combat situation since the SZ is occupied with a DD.

So, following this logic, there is an inferred special capability of a sub to move during NCM into an enemy DD occupied SZ.  Call it whatever, but no other units can move during NCM into enemy controlled SZ’s.

I think that if you reread the paragraph “sub movement” of the sub, page 30, you get the point : a sub can go into hostile zone ; the DD just forces him to stop there. Therefore, yes this is an exception to the “do not go in an hostile SZ”, due to the “stealth” sub capacity.

Was it already the case in revised ? (because then I would really have missed somthing)

@Yoshi:

I think that if you reread the paragraph “sub movement” of the sub, page 30, you get the point : a sub can go into hostile zone ; the DD just forces him to stop there. Therefore, yes this is an exception to the “do not go in an hostile SZ”, due to the “stealth” sub capacity.

Exactly.  The rule reads, “Also, submarines treat hostile sea zones as if they were friendly for purposes of movement.  However, if a submarine enters a sea zone containing an enemy destroyer, its movement ends immediately.”  It’s the exception that subs treat hostile sea zones as if they were friendly that allows them to move into a hostile (to other units) sea zone in noncombat movement.  Since it is a noncombat movement, no combat is initiated.

This concept is also stated on page 15: “A submarine may move through or into a sea zone containing enemy warships during either the Combat Move or Noncombat Move phase.  Unlike other sea units, a submarine may end its noncombat movement in a hostile sea zone.  However, if a submarine enters a sea zone containing an enemy destroyer, its movement ends immediately.”

@Yoshi:

Was it already the case in revised ? (because then I would really have missed somthing)

No, it wasn’t.

@Krieghund:

As to people not knowing this rule, I’m not I understand that.  It’s clearly stated in the Rulebook.  The only explanation I can think of is that it’s “baggage” from previous games’ rules.

I think I can help you with this one.

It’s pretty simple - people think of destroyers as the anti-sub ship.  It’s in most people’s minds that subs can’t go into a zone with a destroyer without a fight.  Period.

I’m sure virtually everyone overlooked the fact that a sub could move into a sea-zone with a massive enemy fleet complete with destroyers, during non-combat move.  This is a big eye-opener.  That said, I do really like the rule, because it means more options.

I guess the important thing for everyone to carry away from this discussion is that movement and combat are separate phases.  Combat never affects movement.  What affects movement is hostile spaces.  Combat, on the other hand, is affected by movement.  Moving into a hostile space in combat movement (or not moving out of one) is what triggers combat.

Each of the abilities of subs applies to a specific phase or phases.  Submersible, Surprise Strike, and Cannot Be Hit by Air Units apply to the Conduct Combat phase only, while Sub Movement applies to the movement (combat and noncombat) phases only.

As an aside, this separation of phases also applies in a situation that often comes up concerning attacking transports.  Many people ask if they can still move units through a sea zone if they’re attacking a transport in that sea zone with other units.  The answer is yes, because the sea zone containing the transport is still not hostile.  The attack on it does not change its status, so it does not block movement.

quick question, came up in my game with Zhukov.  on G2 i attacked z2 with a sub, ftr, 2 bombers.  he had 3 transports, a sub, acc, cruiser, and 2 fighters defending.

after round 2 the battle was down to a sub and 2 bombers attacking and a sub and a fighter defending.

if in round 2 my sub is the only unit to hit, his defending sub is sunk and round 3 becomes a submarine and 2 bombers against a fighter.  at this point, the bombers could disengage and the submarine would still sink the transports correct?  or I could continue with the air battle but at any point retreat any remaining aircraft and the sub still sinks the transports right?  i guess if for some crazy reason I wanted to retreat the submarine to a certain location (maybe to avoid a destroyer in range) I could go ahead and kill two of the transports and retreat the sub right?

thanks

Partial retreats are not allowed, except in the case of amphibious assaults.  If you want your sub to sink the transports, you must continue the battle until either the sub sinks the transports through rolling hits or all of the air units on one side (doesn’t matter which one) are destroyed, ending the battle by leaving it in a state where no units are capable of hitting each other.