AARe : Enhanced

@Cmdr:

Japan almost never has a destroyer in the games of AARe I have played and in almost every game of AAR I have played. (The exception is when they do exceptionally well in SZ 52 and they don’t lose their destroyer there.)

What the hell is the americans doing if you don’t need any DDs?

@Cmdr:

Okay, so if Japan is taking, for arguments sake, 8 rounds (which is a long tactical plan vs 3 rounds which is as fast as possible for Japan) to get 10 submarines, how in the bloody hell do you suppose they are surviving!?!?!  They better all be back by SZ 60 because I can almost assure you with 100% confidence that America will be absolutely murdering those submarines by round 8 for sure, probably round 4 (which is generally when my America has Pacific Naval Superiority.)

The IJN sits at Hawaii for a few rounds… remember that as part of the PIN?  They can sit there J1 and stay there going forward.  It’s easy to play defense with your navy (for both US and Jap).  But being forced to stay in one SZ to stay alive is no good (while losing 10 IPCs to convoy raids…)  THIS also works both ways (US can force Japan to sit at home just as easily).  The pacific fleet balance is a very sensitive one, one that can be easily thrown off balance into one sides favor under your proposed rule that subs can not hit subs.

Obviously there are times when you can not do the pin or it’s not the best move to do (as with any strategy in Enhanced).  Alot depends on UK’s move.  An Indian IC usually makes the PIN alot less effective.

I just went back and re-read your proposal.  You are not saying subs can not hit subs, just that they must have a DD present.  This still makes subs harder to kill… and that is not necessarily a good thing, but I will further discuss and then decide is a game play test is needed.  Game play is the best way to tell if a rule is a good or bad one.

Are you implying that the Subs have to be detected for the attacking subs to be able to hit them?

Can you post a suggested modification to the Enhanced Naval battle sequence with some examples to see how battles are affected?

@Cmdr:

The only change is that the defending submarines are allowed to chose to retreat before opening fire if they are undetected.  This may make them harder to kill until you get a destroyer, but odds are, it will just force you too make sure you have a destroyer or two.

Agreed, more forced DDs.

Who does that help/hurt more?  I am not sure.  I can see how it might help in a certain situation… but it really does make subs more powerful.  They are alot harder to kill, because right now, subs can hunt subs, relatively cheaply.  DD’s make it more expensive to root out the subs.

At this point, I would suggest game play testing, if you haven’t tried that route yet.  I will try my next game to incorporate this change.  Still can’t decide which side it helps/hurts more.  That’s probably a good thing as it’s passing the smell test:  It doesn’t stink!

@Cmdr:

As for being more or less expensive, we’re only talking 2 IPC difference.  Remember, destroyers are not 12 IPC anymore, they are 10.   Both sides have 7 IPC submarines if they chose the correct NAs, but those lock up one of your NA selections and for America, that could be their only one!

Well $2 does add up, and it’s can easily be $3 as you pointed out, so then it really adds up…. especially for US who has to buy navy in both oceans.

@Cmdr:

But the US can get naval industry and if Japan does not take Kaitens (and with only two selections you get in most games, Kaitens are not always the way to go) it’s only a difference of 1 IPC.

OK, average $2… * 4 DD’s the US will buy = one sub
4 DD’s purchased for both pacific and atlantic if the axis run a sub game plan is NOT outrageous.

To me, that ADDS up.

Pagan (the master perveyor of Enhanced, even more than me!)  put together this sub simplification that I think is an excellent reference:

AARe :  Subs  (simplified)

0.  In regular AAR ,  Destroyers detect subs automatically and subs may not Submerge + may not kill things without them returning fire.
–- In AARe , Destroyers have to detect subs by rolling a 3 or less before the combats begin.  If there are 50 subs + 10 destroyers , then there would be 10 rolls of 3 or less. If any of those succeed, then All 50 subs are detected.
— Detected subs act exactly as they would in regular AAR-LHTR.
— Undetected subs get a First Cycle combat option  (#1)

1. in the VERY FIRST cycle of a combat an Undetected sub may Shoot + Submerge in the Opening Fire phase.  That means that it doesnt take hits from regular fire (since it has submerged) , but it is still subject to Opening Fire hits

2. If a sub decides to stay in combat after this very first shot, then it is now detected and will now forever act like any other sub in AAR-LHTR

3. Special Note 1 :  subs WILL convoy raid subs when close to an IC

4. Special Note 2 : Aircraft alone cannot attack alone sub-packs.  The aircraft would have to bring a ship with them. Detection would still apply, and the sub could shoot + submerge in the opening fire phase.  This is how they become annoying little slippery fish

@Cmdr:

So in other words, if I read it correctly, the defender/attacker may not automatically get to return fire with units hit by submarines if they no longer have a destroyer - even though the submarines are “detected” after the first round?

Detection only affects the very first round of combat, and it only affects the ability to dive in that first round EVEN if their is an enemy destroyer present.  An undetected sub can always dive after the initial opening fire round.

If I wasn’t clear, let me add:

Detection has nothing to do with first shot capability.  Normal LHTR rules apply:  No enemy DD, opening fire hits are lost before the rest of combat rolls occur.

@Rakeman:

The simplified rules are a lot clearer.  Thanks for those.

If I attack subs with a surface ship and 50 fighters, once that surface ship dies, is combat automatically over?

No it does not automatically end.  But why would defenseless subs stay in another round of combat and be subjected to the planes attack when they can submerge at the end of a round of combat?

@Rakeman:

If I understand it right…

Detection ONLY matters for the first cycle of combat.  After that cycle, disregard everything about detection.

So basically, the addition of detection is not a handicap for submarines, but a pure benefit.

Yes, detection makes subs harder to kill as they basically need to be found to be killed (except with sub on sub)

@Rakeman:

Also about NAs… for NAs like Russian Winter, can you declare that as your NA, but not actually use it until a future turn?

The rules/nature of Russian winter allows such a delay.  Reread the wording of the NA, it should be clear that you do not have to use it when it is declared as a Russian NA

FYI
You can delay your second NA choice if you would like to.  You do pay a slight penalty as the additional capability that the NA offers would not take effect until the end of your turn.

For example, Germany does not choose their second NA on G2.  G3 they decide to choose Wolf Packs.  However, as a penalty for delaying the second NA choice till round 3 (or later), Germany an not attack with the subs at a “3” if they have more than 1 sub attacking  on G3 (or the round the NA was taken).

@Rakeman:

Except sub on sub… huh?

well subs do shoot in opening fire, so if one sub attacks another sub, there is no detection (no DD involved), so then you go to opening fire and THEN you can dive (since you’ll be undetected).  So this means subs can hunt subs.

I know some Enhanced players don’t like this (subs can kill subs), but it does indeed work well in the grand scheme of things, IMHO.

BTW, I would say I have played 120+ games of Enhanced.

@Rakeman:

Other than that, it’s pretty clear now.  Thanks again!

You are Welcome!

good gaming!