LL v ADS

@Bean:

The one thing I disagree with you is that you think you shouldn’t even try to strafe if there is any doubt whatsoever. I have been saying consistently and with reason that you should not be scared of strafing.

I take this from  your statement:

@axis_roll:

Well, no that’s the point.  You SHOULD not straffe unless you do not fear getting stuck.

Hmm.  I don’t think I said you should NEVER straffe.  I said you should straffe UNLESS you are worried about getting stuck.  However, many times in ADS, you CAN and WILL get stuck when you thought you should never have gotten stuck (computing at your 75% hits), or even worse, you do poorly on your straffing roll (because you targetted only 75%) and actually LOSE units in the exchange.  Whoops.

These things do not happen in LL.

And I agree we’re disagreeing in a very subtle manner.

However, many times in ADS, you CAN and WILL get stuck when you thought you should never have gotten stuck (computing at your 75% hits), or even worse, you do poorly on your straffing roll (because you targetted only 75%) and actually LOSE units in the exchange.  Whoops.

That’s why you should practice using a calculator. For instance, if there is a force of 8 inf 8 arm (bait) in Karelia, and I have say…40 inf 8 arm 5 fig 1 bom available to strike, I would probably go in with 25 inf 8 arm 5 fig 1 bom. There’s only a 4% chance of taking that territory, and most of the time the trade will be favorable; i.e. I will lose inf and will burn off their inf and some arm. Of course as with all dice it can turn out unfavorable, but just chalk it up as one of those bad battles. The more you’re scared of taking the territory the less inf you send in, and yes at some point it’s clearly not favorable, but you should not be scared simply because it can and will happen - you have to think how often it will happen in the long run. For every time you get stuck (that 4%) you could just as easily have done a perfect strafe or nearly perfect strafe. If you get reverse diced like you don’t do a lot and the enemy does a lot, oh well, that happens in any battle you participate in.

Also if you took the territory, that’s not the end of the world. If the forces remaining in Karelia are vulnerable, then reinforce them. If they aren’t, which is likely since probably the bait is simply to get you going in the wrong direction, then you’ll just have to retreat out of E. Europe and deadzone that, and next turn strafe from Karelia + Germany + retreat to Germany.

And I agree we’re disagreeing in a very subtle manner.

But would you disagree that we’re agreeing about the degree of disagreement that we are not agreeing about? Wait, did that make any sense?  :lol:

See, you’re speaking in specific examples, I am speaking in generalities.  Plus your examples are poor ones, at best.

I would never leave a stack of 8 inf and 8 tank as bait if there was 40 inf, 8 arm, 5 ftr and a bomber next to me!

C’mon!  If you are going to use examples, use realistic, practical ones.  Now I just might leave stacks of 5 inf around that German monster EEU stack in kar, belo and ukraine.  In MY (more realistic strategic example), Germany would be hard pressed to straffe my 3 stacks of 5 inf in ADS.

And you also speak of reinforcing IF you take it.  Well hell, then we’re talking about something DIFFERENT than hit and runs now, aren’t we?

I would never leave a stack of 8 inf and 8 tank as bait if there was 40 inf, 8 arm, 5 ftr and a bomber next to me!

See, that’s the whole point. In either ADS or LL you would not do that.

C’mon!  If you are going to use examples, use realistic, practical ones.  Now I just might leave stacks of 5 inf around that German monster EEU stack in kar, belo and ukraine.  In MY (more realistic strategic example), Germany would be hard pressed to straffe my 3 stacks of 5 inf in ADS.

How’s that a better example? I already told you, Germany has enough figs + 3 inf to crush one stack, then they can move hard into another stack. Then you’re 10 inf down at the cost of 3-4 inf. Losing all that kind of inf makes no sense, it means you can’t counter Germany’s stack or defend as well in any location.

And you also speak of reinforcing IF you take it.  Well hell, then we’re talking about something DIFFERENT than hit and runs now, aren’t we?

No, we’re talking about hit and runs, we’re just saying if you hit that ugly 4% that you didn’t want to, this is how you would mitigate the damage.

And also how am I not speaking in generalities? My first statement in this whole direction was “even though you cannot strafe precisely, does not mean you shouldn’t.” That’s about as general as it gets.

Excluding stacks of say 3-4 inf where trading may become more favorable, I honestly can’t think (off the top of my head) of a situation or stack where in LL you have favorable odds to strafe, but in ADS somehow your odds are bad such that it makes the strafe not doable.

Any strafe that is guaranteed to last more than one round is certainly a go since there is no element of accidental taking (at least not until the 2nd/3rd rd), and any one rd strafe that is profitable in LL should at worst be a 1 to 1 trade meaning the same hit points for Off and Def.  Obviously you’d like better than the 1 to 1, but if you have more hit points in LL you are going to have more attack points in ADS as well.

I suppose if you are going to strafe with less hit points on Off than Def, where you are counting on doing your damage 3 or 4 rds later, but even then…

the best example I can come up with right now would be an attack of something like:
21 inf, 11 arm vs. 12 inf, 16 arm
Where you want to cut into the defending arm.
But this battle is pretty negative (at 54 vs. 72) in LL and it is only after two rds where you end up with 11 arm vs. 12 arm (attacker lost 21 inf for 63 ipc and def lost 12 inf, 4 arm for 56 ipc).  The attacker losses on the exchange but maybe it was worth it to get to the arm. 
But if you are willing to take that chance in LL (with the early bad odds know you are going to come out negative) I’m not sure why all of a sudden in ADS it is bad to come out negative as well?  Why not take a shot (if you’d do that in LL), at least in ADS you can roll up and if you do roll up then great, if you roll down, then okay that sucks but he isn’t going to get 22 hits in 1 rd to pick off your arm.

Excluding stacks of say 3-4 inf where trading may become more favorable, I honestly can’t think (off the top of my head) of a situation or stack where in LL you have favorable odds to strafe, but in ADS somehow your odds are bad such that it makes the strafe not doable.

That’s exactly it. There’s no need to get overly fearful of taking the territory - just treat it appropriately. Bring enough forces such that the chance of taking the territory in 1-2 rounds is 5% or so, and the other 95% on average should favor you if it’s really a bait force and not a huge pile of infantry. Just because one is scared of taking the territory doesn’t mean you should always avoid it because there’s the slight chance of taking it.

@axis_roll:

And again, I am not saying that it’s better or worse…. just that it DOES change the game.  Is the change ground breaking?  No.

But an LL newbie may not be as aware of these key kind of differences that exist between ADS and LL.

And that, in a nut shell is my ENTIRE ARGUMENT.  ADS != LL (!= means Does Not Equal in programming speak).  They are DIFFERENT GAMES just as LHTR is a different game then OOB.  Or AARe is a different game then AAR.  They use the same pieces, they use the same board, they have a lot of similar characteristics, but they are different.

For me, every game is different, it doesn’t matter what rules we play.
The difference from ADS to LL which is not disputed, is the bigger variation.
I’m wondering if a G navy strat can work somehow in ADS, because players need overkill in attacking, as with LL
even if you can’t be sure of the exact number of units that will survive, it’s much easier to figure out how much
offense punch you need to be sure of at least winning a battle.
This may be a big difference for some players, to me this is a minor issue.
To know how much overkill that is needed in ADS games as opposed to LL, is not different from knowing if
units on the front line can be killed by the enemy units within reach in both ADS and LL games.
I played a game against Bean as allies with no bids for axis. This was no more different from all other games I played.
I did some attacks which I would not if I choose to play conservatively, but again, EVERY game is different, ADS or
LL is no more different than any other differences. The biggest difference imo, in the community where I play (lobby)
is the huge difference in player skills. What feels as big difference for me, is if I’m winning or losing, is my
opponent really good or a newb… I got killed by better players in multi and ADS and I got killed in 1vs1 LL.
I started winning some games, both in multiplayer ADS and 1vs1 LL. That is biggest difference for me.
It still is the same game even if there differences from 1vs1 to multiplayer, tech or no tech, bid or no bids, bid rules,
or ADS or LL.

What’s ADS and LL?

ADS is just regular dice rolling.

LL is Low Luck.  You add up the attacking and defending points of all the att and def units divide by six then roll only for the remainder.

Example

4 inf, 3 arm vs. 5 inf, 2 arm

Attacker
4 inf = 4 * 1 = 4
3 arm = 3 * 3 = 9

So attacker has 13 which means 2 hits (13/6) and then you would try and roll for a 1.

Defender
5 inf = 5 * 2 = 10
2 arm = 2 * 3 = 6

So the Defender gets 2 hits (16/6) and then would roll for a 4 or less for a 3rd possible hit.

In LL, I don’t think any gambit would work unless your opponent doesn’t know how to calculate the correct punch to get the victory conditions s/he wants.

Thus, every action by Germany needs to be done with the knowledge aforethought that the allies will be able to hit you with just enough punch to win what they want.  There will be no need for the allies to worry that your transport will hit in defense of the SZ 14 fleet, since your combined punch is 5.  That means 2 fighters/bomber will get at least one hit (probably two hits) and the defender can get no more then one hit in the first round of battle OR the second round of battle.  Thus, it is impossible for the attacker to lose both fighters and the bomber.  Where-as in ADS, there’s at least hope that the transport will hit and the battleship will hit. A pretty decent chance of both hitting, actually (11%).

That’s what I mean when it’s a DIFFERENT GAME.  Which is what I’ve been saying the WHOLE time.  (And evidentially getting bad karma from people LIKE you for saying.)  It is a different game.  It’s as different as LHTR 1.3 is to AAR-OOB or LHTR 2.0 is to LHTR 1.3.

@DarthMaximus:

ADS is just regular dice rolling.

LL is Low Luck.  You add up the attacking and defending points of all the att and def units divide by six then roll only for the remainder.

Example

4 inf, 3 arm vs. 5 inf, 2 arm

Attacker
4 inf = 4 * 1 = 4
3 arm = 3 * 3 = 9

So attacker has 13 which means 2 hits (13/6) and then you would try and roll for a 1.

Defender
5 inf = 5 * 2 = 10
2 arm = 2 * 3 = 6

So the Defender gets 2 hits (16/6) and then would roll for a 4 or less for a 3rd possible hit.

I see, thanks.

That’s kind of neat.

On a side note……who smited me! Very uncalled for.

Most players buy the same stuff regardless of LL or ADS, and most people use the same strats.

A game with no bid is different from 6-9 bid, but also every game without bids, and every game with exact same
amount of bid and same bid rules are also different.

Your difference definition is worthless Jennifer. If I played you with x rules, x bid and whatever setting, and after the
first game we play again, with the exact same settings, the new game is still different from the first one.
You’re trying to claim there’s a huge difference between LL and ADS, which is not true.
LL or ADS is a minor difference.
It may be a difference in your head but then you are delusional.

@Bean:

C’mon!  If you are going to use examples, use realistic, practical ones.  Now I just might leave stacks of 5 inf around that German monster EEU stack in kar, belo and ukraine.  In MY (more realistic strategic example), Germany would be hard pressed to straffe my 3 stacks of 5 inf in ADS.

How’s that a better example? I already told you, Germany has enough figs + 3 inf to crush one stack, then they can move hard into another stack. Then you’re 10 inf down at the cost of 3-4 inf. Losing all that kind of inf makes no sense, it means you can’t counter Germany’s stack or defend as well in any location.

OK, to specifics again.  In my example of the 5 inf picket in Kar, Bel and Ukr…. the Russians have huge numbers just like your Germans did in EEU… Those three territories are dead zoned.  You CAN NOT move into one HARD as you point out.  That’s part of the point of actually throwing out the 5 inf picket fence.  Expensive trading areas.

You guys (Darth and Bean) seem to point to big stacks … I am not talking big stacks.  I am talking a picket of 5-6 inf that are hard to straffe favorably without getting stuck or while making it worth while.

Against 5 inf, what would you bring in ADS as a strafe?
4 inf and 4 tanks?

No guarentees in ADS, I’ve seen 4/4 get 6 hits, I’ve seen it miss.  THAT SORT OF STRAFFE ODDITY does not happen in LL.  THIS is my whole point.

Remember you have to do this three times since I’ve stacked the dead zone with throw away allied inf, trying to bait you in or cause the Germans to commit enough to only take one of the three territories.

This can be a very effective way of grabbing and holding one or two of these "dead zoned’ territories (kar/bel/ukr).

If the German player has many ftrs and lots of inf, then it’s easier to do TUV trading, not only TT trading.

Those examples you’re talking about, doesn’t matter much in the whole picture.

Right, ftrs can do a pretty good job against 5 inf, but assuming they weren’t available.

For 5 inf,

in LL I’d bring 2-3 inf, 7 arm for the perfect 4 hits.
in ADS probably 3 inf, 5 arm (maybe 6) depending on status of the game.

Yes, with 3 inf, 5 arm I may get 5 hits but that would require one heck of a roll and I chance I’d probably take.

I just did a quick check on Frood, with 3 inf, 5 arm against 5 inf there is a 12% chance for 5 hits, and with 3 inf, 6 arm there is a 23% chance.
I certainly feel comfortable with the 88-75 range, but would probably lean toward the 3/5 attack unless I have availabel planes, then I might go with 3 inf, 4 arm, 2 ftrs or something.

@Lucifer:

Most players buy the same stuff regardless of LL or ADS, and most people use the same strats.

A game with no bid is different from 6-9 bid, but also every game without bids, and every game with exact same
amount of bid and same bid rules are also different.

Your difference definition is worthless Jennifer. If I played you with x rules, x bid and whatever setting, and after the
first game we play again, with the exact same settings, the new game is still different from the first one.
You’re trying to claim there’s a huge difference between LL and ADS, which is not true.
LL or ADS is a minor difference.
It may be a difference in your head but then you are delusional.

But we’re not talking a simple difference in tactics or bid.  We’re talking a completely different set of rules.  So yes, my definition is valid.  LL is as different from ADS as LHTR is from OOB.  They are DIFFERENT GAMES. You seem to be the ONLY person who is arguing they are the same game.

And, for the record, anyone who does the exact same moves in ADS as they do in LL will lose every ADS game or every LL game.  Which is why NO ONE does the exact same moves.  To state otherwise means you are either a fool or lying.

In LL, I have no problem doing 1 Inf, 4 Fig vs 2 Inf attacks.  In ADS you better DAMN well be certain I’m coming at you with 2 infantry!

Why?  In LL, I have a 33% chance of taking the land and 100% chance of my fighters surviving and killing all your defenders.  In ADS I have almost 100% chance to kill you off, but also a 15% chance to lose a fighter!

(Yes, I used fighters just so I could decimate your entire argument that fighters change everything so you can use ADS tactics.  Congratulations, your last argument has been proven wrong.  Will you please come up with a new argument or actually consider that everyone else on this board who has any level of experience with both systems might actually be telling you the truth that ADS and LL are not the same tactically or strategically?)

I do not understand why this is such a hard message to convey.  If you can use cheaper units to accomplish the same thing, if you can set up perfect strafes without risk and if you can economize your assets to the nth degree, then the game is fundamentally different.

I’m not saying it’s bad.  Personally, it’s kinda fun to throw in a LL game or two.  It takes a lot of the stress off those battles where the enemy gets 22 AA Gun shots.  I know that there’s 0% chance of losing 11 fighters in LL!  But honestly, that is not the same scenario you face in ADS.  In ADS you could lose all 22 fighters to that AA gun, or none.  Makes a HUGE difference on when you are willing to make the attack.  And that is exactly why ADS is a different game then LL.

@DarthMaximus:

For 5 inf,

in LL I’d bring 2-3 inf, 7 arm for the perfect 4 hits.
in ADS probably 3 inf, 5 arm (maybe 6) depending on status of the game.

Yes, with 3 inf, 5 arm I may get 5 hits but that would require one heck of a roll and I chance I’d probably take.

I just did a quick check on Frood, with 3 inf, 5 arm against 5 inf there is a 12% chance for 5 hits, and with 3 inf, 6 arm there is a 23% chance.
I certainly feel comfortable with the 88-75 range, but would probably lean toward the 3/5 attack unless I have availabel planes, then I might go with 3 inf, 4 arm, 2 ftrs or something.

The key here in ADS is the variable of how many will hit in that first round for either side.  With such low numbers, it can be all over the board.  This variablilty is not a aspect of LL.

Going by best approximation for the ‘odds’ in our example, 3 inf, 5 arm should hit 3.  Defense most likely will get 2.

KEY QUESTION: Do you go another round?  inf, 5 arm versus 2 inf.  Tough one.
I can definitely see 5 tanks getting 2 hits.  Ouch.  Tanks vulnerable to counter.

Or do you take the +1 unit count and w/d?

@Cmdr:

But we’re not talking a simple difference in tactics or bid.  We’re talking a completely different set of rules.  So yes, my definition is valid.  LL is as different from ADS as LHTR is from OOB.  They are DIFFERENT GAMES. You seem to be the ONLY person who is arguing they are the same game.

It’s different, but the it’s only a minor difference. The overkill needed in ADS is obvious.

And, for the record, anyone who does the exact same moves in ADS as they do in LL will lose every ADS game or every LL game.  Which is why NO ONE does the exact same moves.  To state otherwise means you are either a fool or lying.

Same arguments can be claimed about every game. If I did the exact same moves in game nr.2 that I did in game nr.1 then I would lose every game, regardless of LL or ADS.

In LL, I have no problem doing 1 Inf, 4 Fig vs 2 Inf attacks.  In ADS you better DAMN well be certain I’m coming at you with 2 infantry!

Why?  In LL, I have a 33% chance of taking the land and 100% chance of my fighters surviving and killing all your defenders.  In ADS I have almost 100% chance to kill you off, but also a 15% chance to lose a fighter!

The overkill in ADS is obvious, specially with air units involved.
To do bad combat is no different from ADS and LL, how many units to use will vary from battle to battle.

(Yes, I used fighters just so I could decimate your entire argument that fighters change everything so you can use ADS tactics.  Congratulations, your last argument has been proven wrong.  Will you please come up with a new argument or actually consider that everyone else on this board who has any level of experience with both systems might actually be telling you the truth that ADS and LL are not the same tactically or strategically?)

My old arguments still holds  :-P
Most strats are the same both in LL and ADS.

I do not understand why this is such a hard message to convey.  If you can use cheaper units to accomplish the same thing, if you can set up perfect strafes without risk and if you can economize your assets to the nth degree, then the game is fundamentally different.

Not often that I see perfect strafes in LL games. Players who let the opponent do a strafe to their 10 tank stack needs more experience. An inf+ ftrs attack against tanks only would probably be a good move
in ADS as well.

I’m not saying it’s bad.  Personally, it’s kinda fun to throw in a LL game or two.  It takes a lot of the stress off those battles where the enemy gets 22 AA Gun shots.  I know that there’s 0% chance of losing 11 fighters in LL!  But honestly, that is not the same scenario you face in ADS.  In ADS you could lose all 22 fighters to that AA gun, or none.  Makes a HUGE difference on when you are willing to make the attack.  And that is exactly why ADS is a different game then LL.

The biggest difference is that you can get lucky in ADS, in LL only to a small degree.
As for the overkill, this is so obvious that only those who have not played LL would do bad moves and use the same
overkill tactics which is needed in ADS.