Italian neutrality

@bretters I feel bad we’re having basically the same discussion in two threads haha.

I definitely get Germany gets Italy’s 10 IPP without having to protect them, that is certainly a positive. And it’s certainly a positive that they wouldn’t have to worry about bailing Italy out. But from the Allied perspective, their Med convoy line now basically can’t be touched for convoy raiding, so that’s basically money gained. No territory can be lost, that’s money gained. No wartime bonuses can be lost, that’s money gained. Plus, I think the Allies can recover more than 10 IPP a turn of expenditures that would have gone to the area otherwise to be used elsewhere.

To your point on leaving Africa too lightly defended, I guess I’m obviously assuming a competent defense of the area too haha! Just build defenses in North Africa for 2-3 turns, and some miltia/infantry in Trans-Jordan, Gibraltar, with maybe a couple spare ships in the right places. The Italians will have to attack/amphibiously assault defending/maybe even fortified areas. Italy only starts the game with 15 ground/air units that can make offensive attacks somewhere. If Italy trades their money away every turn, that won’t be made any stronger! It won’t take much of a defensive effort to block whatever these 15 units might accomplish, and that would also mean only 4 Italian militia left to defend the entire home country in the event they did try something!

Just since I’m curious, what makes you think the Allies won’t be able to put “added income” in other theaters to good enough use to overcome Germany’s added income? Or, alternatively, why you think the Allies won’t have that “added income” available?

@chris_henry

again the med convoy line is too easy to protect.

Italy will need to invest into itself a lot, and the whole game to make itself applicable… this is not a good use of resources as they could just give it to Germany who can already defend itself and use that $10 to be even more effective a fighting force.

you seem to think Italy will conquer the world or even the med as soon as it joins the war and that is just too highly optimistic of you.

of course Italian neutrality may give the allies a few more bucks to focus elsewhere but that doesn’t matter.

@bretters I think you greatly misunderstand me haha. I in no way, shape, or form think that Italy can do all these things. In fact, I was merely just commenting on the scenario you laid out where you said Italy took over a ton of Africa! That should never happen, so my comment was based on what you said happened in your game!

My main point is that this frees up a lot of money for the Allies to be used elsewhere, more than the 10 IPP Germany might get from Italian lend-lease. And I think that would be detrimental to the Axis in the end. That’s my thoughts.

Seems to me you don’t think the Allies gain an advantage with that, while I do think it is an advantage. If we disagree fundamentally on that, then we might have to just agree to disagree! haha

@chris_henry if Italy can not do these things then how do you have confidence that Italy can / will do anything meaningful when at war AND protect itself - taking victory points from the allies and keeping them for themselves ?
I mean yea it is probably agree to disagree on this but seriously …

@bretters To me, anything meaningful means tying up Allied resources to help the Germans. This doesn’t necessarily mean declaring war right away. But picking a spot and tying up resources is helpful, in my opinion. If I’m the Allies and see all Italy IPP going to Germany, I know there’s now zero threat from Italy (who don’t even have a transport anyways). I can focus my units and money elsewhere now. To me, that is more detrimental to the Axis cause than trying to ensure Allied resources stay in the Med!

But yeah, sounds like we won’t convince each other haha.

@chris_henry
In my current playing as Italy I planned to stay neutral for most of the game and maybe declare war in the end game, Italy sent aid to the SCW which was still lost to the Republicans . Italy won the war in Abyssinia on turn 1. I built a transport early and pulled any Italian troops in Africa back to the mainland. A few turns I lend leases my $ to Germany , but then I positioned my navy to threaten a DOW to protect the Japanese fleet and also a smaller part of my navy near / on the med to threaten the UK. During this positioning of naval i decided to build more militia and infantry to protect my homeland to give myself the freedom to declare war for the purpose of using my navy and not worry too much about losing Rome or N Italy right when I got into the war.
It ended up being Jan ‘43 and the Americans had landed in Spain and left 9 transports with just 4 ships to protect them, Italy declared war solely to kill this transport fleet which I did with a 6 ship fleet. Italy is just glad to be alive and weaken the allies in this manner. I also landed in Cyprus so my goal is to hold Abyssinia and Cyprus for victory points

@chris_henry
Italy should 💯 at the very least build itself a transport.

@bretters Well that’s a whole different scenario altogether than what was being said before! So the plan isn’t to stay Neutral and send all money to Germany then?

It sounds like what you’re describing in your game aligns more closely to my thinking than before. If Italy is spending it’s own money on itself, even though Neutral, then that forces the Allies to have to stay prepared.

Sounds like the USA made a grave mistake with their transports!

Also, did you mean to say your goal is to hold Albania and Cyprus, instead of Abyssinia? You mentioned you abandoned Africa, so I’m assuming you meant Albania. Just curious what your plan was/is if you did mean Abyssinia though!

@chris_henry actually I did leave one inf in Abyssinia and placed a militia there Italy’s last turn , I plan to continue building militia there and potentially upgrading militia there to infantry as well

I actually just kicked out a huge force of British and French troops in Yugoslavia with Germany and Albania is currently not in axis control

@bretters Oh got it, just curious!

Sounds like the Balkans are a hot spot right now!