I posted this to the Global War page as well, hoping to get some creator insights to the question/situation, but I’m curious as to anyone’s take here as well that maybe doesn’t frequent the Global War page as often.
This is a question or two tied into general curiosity.
Situation is Germany and USSR have signed Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, so German forces are as far east as Warsaw, USSR is in Lubelskie. The turn Germany Declares war on the USSR, let’s say they want to use the Lightning War ability.
First, a question. If using the Lightning War ability the turn they invade the USSR, does the Soviet Surprise Attack take effect on both rounds of combat?
Second, I’m curious as to if anyone has tried this, because it’s conceivable to just take Moscow the first turn Germany goes to war with the USSR. If my question above is affirmative, then it’s even easier for them to do so.
Germany can stockpile medium armor and mechanized infantry at Warsaw. They attack Lubelskie, win in under 3 rounds of combat; because the armor and mechanized infantry only moved one space, they can blitz into Minsk; they attack Minsk, win; Lightning War comes into play, German medium armor and mechanized infantry from Minsk attack Western Russia, win in under three rounds of combat; because the armor and mechanized infantry only moved one space, they can blitz into Moscow; they attack Moscow, win.
This obviously requires German forces to win two battles in three rounds of combat or less for the blitz to come into effect, but it’s possible.
I know Germany has to wait until July 1938 to be able to build medium armor and mechanized infantry, but they could maybe just stockpile all their IPP’s until that time and build as many as they can before the July 1940 cutoff to use the Lighting War ability. USSR would only be getting a maximum of 13 IPP’s a turn (8 IPP Starting Income; 1 IPP for Viipuri, if taken; 1 IPP for East Poland; 3 IPP for Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact being signed), at times, with one or two Sleeping Bear rolls mixed in. But Germany would have more IPP’s to spend on this route than the USSR. USSR player would have to be keen to know that this was happening and turtle a lot of it’s troops from across the country at Moscow to try and prevent this.
Also wanted to add for clarity that the Lightning War use would allow potential Light Tanks, Motorized Infantry, and potential towed artillery to also attack Western Russia in the scenario above, therefore leaving more medium armor and mechanized infantry (and or course any aircraft) to continue the final blitz to Moscow.
Just saying, it’s possible.
True, the west would quite possibly be ignored at first. But France has to wait an entire turn before attacking Germany anyways (assuming it’s peacetime bonus of 5 IPP’s for Germany attacking USSR even get it to wartime income levels), leaving Germany with a bit of time to turn some attention back that way. While this would leave France stronger and more difficult to take out, you’ve essentially destroyed the USSR already and can focus vast resources to the west again.
Has this been considered? Curious of your take on this!
Thanks!
Chris
Wow this is brilliant!
As per the sheets soviet surprise attack by Germany applies to the TURN.
+1 German attack and -1 Soviet defense. So yeah it looks like this would apply to the entire turn including double move, LIGHTING WAR.
Lightning War: Only specific upto or before July1940. And states the second round of attacks happens directly after noncombat phase. And blitz is possible for both rounds of combat.
Since this happens before collect income and place units it is undeniably the same German Turn. And follows the rule for soviet surprise attack.
This looks full legal and legitimate.
If leaving france till later is problematic try this:
Take France in 2 turns instead starting 1938. Next move it all to Poland and take it too. Then double move to Moscow lol. I’ll be playing Soviets a lot more conservative if Germany saves its double move instead of using it for france and Poland.
Just took France a few days back so it will be a little while before we can try this out! May be able to block it as USSR. I’ll need to try it a few times.
Its so obvious, I don’t know why we never tried it out already!
Thanks Rank! Yea, I was just looking at the map and I was like, huh, this looks possible. Also, just looked again, and the same theory can be applied to moving from Warsaw>Lubelskie>Belorussia>Orel-Kursk>Moscow. So this even widens the area the USSR would need to cover to prevent this from happening.
I read the rules the same way as you, so I believe this is legitimate as well!
Again, it wouldn’t be without it’s faults. Going over peacetime IPP increases, the odds of the UK and/or France being able to declare war on Germany after they attack Poland is high. So this scenario plays out with them probably being at war in the west as well. Again, you’re obviously needing the initial two attacks each round to happen in three rounds or less, otherwise the blitz cannot happen, and then they cannot reach.
It would have to be carefully thought out. You’d have to be able to hit the USSR essentially the next turn after taking Warsaw, or else you may risk letting the Allies get too strong too early.
What you say below could also work as well. If you could slog it out with France early without using the Lightning War ability, this could work. I fear Germany would still be too weak in 1938 though to fight France, and anything the UK might throw their way too, and still conserve the resources that would be needed to hit the USSR to make it work. The best bet I would think would maybe be to make sure you could throw something at the French during the Lightning War as well, albeit just be infantry, artillery, and some other units that wouldn’t be able to help in the Moscow run. Put them on a back foot as well, even if you can’t take Paris right away.
I know this is usually predicated on taking France out early, and the general thought is normally “you can’t let France survive, otherwise you lose”. But does that still hold weight if the alternative is severely cripple the USSR right away instead?
It would definitely be a gamble, but I’d be very curious to see how it could play out. I do agree with you, it probably alters what the Soviets should do early in the game. But could also come with more risk. Do you stack lots of units on the border to hopefully make the first round of combat last more than three rounds? Maybe just back a bit so the whole brunt isn’t felt immediately? Do you just have more than enough sitting in Moscow to blunt the last attack definitively? Either way, it would put the Soviets on the back/defensive foot immediately. Which I guess is always the case, but this would feel different, as you might have to affect your defenses in other areas to make sure these corridors stay safe.
I will say, this possibility makes it way more important that the USSR can declare a second capital after Moscow is defeated. If that wasn’t the case, I have to imagine this would be an Axis strategy all the time. You’d just knock out the Soviets right away and be able to focus everything west haha.
Again, it’s not fool proof, and comes with risk. But with careful planning on buys, and movement, I just wonder if it could work. Let me know if you get a chance to try it, I’d be curious what you think!
Thats a lot of different points to unpack. Ill do a few at a time.
Poland is in an Alliance agreement with British and French. They all declare war if you attack any of the 3. So when you move to Warsaw they are already at full production.
You would definitely be needing to get some troops by the French too.
USSR will be at full income early with this attack. So it depends upon your individual games unit setup at the time. This first attack if going deep into Russia will probably be destroyed by counterattacks. The surprise attack is usually a motivator for me to hit the biggest stacks I can reach. But if its possible to get Moscow why not. Or instead take the cities of leningrad and smolensk together before the Russians move or destroy the facilities if possible.
As for moving the Russian capital. They can move it, but they lose their money to the bank and build nothing the next turn.
As Russia I leave my troops farther back from the front line. They always get picked of early in small stacks otherwise. Prefer to stack them in the cities or in locatons that can counter attack them.
Russia has also prematurely declared on Germany to nullify the surprise attack!
Buy fighters but especially tactical bombers every round from the start. At least 1. They can follow a blitz and move from one side of Europe to the other fast if needed. This way you can move rapidly from one front to the other. As Germany.
I would prefer to eliminate france at the same time as Poland first. And usually build up for a few turns after as Russia increases its income. Before attacking Russia head on. This allows you to align romania hungary and Bulgaria too. Forcing Russia to split its defense or hang back a bit. But your idea I’ll need to try in the future.
Hmm, I think that’s mistaken re Poland. The UK reference sheet shows “Each time Germany (and/or Italy) initiate war with ANY OTHER nation” as a +2D12. Axis declares war on France is automatic full production for the UK though. Is this mentioned elsewhere that they go to war automatically once Poland is attacked?
If you’re right on that, then this plan would definitely have to be reconsidered. It was a bit predicated on the hope that the UK and/or France would have some poor dice rolls once Poland was attacked and wouldn’t quite yet go to war.
Also, are you sure that’s right regarding USSR’s money? Someone at the Global War site pointed out that even if Moscow falls, the USSR still keeps their money, given the special rule of moving the capital. Thoughts?
Again, if you’re right on that though, then I’d feel even more prepared to take the shot against the USSR. If they lose all their money for one turn (granted, it wouldn’t be much, seeing as war was just declared same turn in this scenario), then that’s a big set back. They’d have to wait a whole turn to build anything, and would have to be sure to focus money on new factories as well.
I definitely get your strategy with Russian troops. I was just asking in a sense of countering the Lighting War strike being discussed here. I agree, front line is not good. But to prevent losing Moscow first turn of war, do you just stack on Moscow then?
Hmm, I think that’s mistaken re Poland. The UK reference sheet shows “Each time Germany (and/or Italy) initiate war with ANY OTHER nation” as a +2D12. Axis declares war on France is automatic full production for the UK though. Is this mentioned elsewhere that they go to war automatically once Poland is attacked?
You are correct. I was mistaken regarding Poland, this only applies for 1939 senario. The Three are already aligned and at war with Germany in 1939 setup.
This must have been where we went wrong with Poland. Thanks for pointing out that oops of ours!If you’re right on that, then this plan would definitely have to be reconsidered. It was a bit predicated on the hope that the UK and/or France would have some poor dice rolls once Poland was attacked and wouldn’t quite yet go to war.
Realistically odds are close to 50/50 on this, definitely recommend a backup plan to deal with Western Europe.Also, are you sure that’s right regarding USSR’s money? Someone at the Global War site pointed out that even if Moscow falls, the USSR still keeps their money, given the special rule of moving the capital. Thoughts?
page 48. 9.20 Capturing an Enemy Capital: A nation that losses all of its saved IPP’s (even if it does not technically surrender). Some nations can set up a second Capital.Again, if you’re right on that though, then I’d feel even more prepared to take the shot against the USSR. If they lose all their money for one turn (granted, it wouldn’t be much, seeing as war was just declared same turn in this scenario), then that’s a big set back. They’d have to wait a whole turn to build anything, and would have to be sure to focus money on new factories as well.
I definitely get your strategy with Russian troops. I was just asking in a sense of countering the Lighting War strike being discussed here. I agree, front line is not good. But to prevent losing Moscow first turn of war, do you just stack on Moscow then?
Yeah I would probably collapse back in northern Russia to Moscow giving a nearly undefended leningrad and smolensk to Germany. That way I keep all money and plan on a counter attack.
This will work probably only one time against a player. However if the opportunity comes up depending upon Russian deployment, I will be trying it out.
And I didn’t realize that was a 1939 setup rule, so that is cleared for me as well!
Thanks for pointing out 9.20 as well. I’ll be sure to point that out to others, as they seemed misinformed on that front.
Overall, I definitely agree with you. This is probably a one time chance it works against an opponent. But, it may still alter the way the Soviets are played early on a bit!
