No changing of costs or values,
Air units fight each other at reduced values
Fighter:2
Fighter-bomber: 1
Strategic Bomber:1
Jet Fighter: 3
They fire each round concurrent with each land combat round, when all fighters from one side retreat or are destroyed, the planes fire at normal values. Note defender cannot retreat planes.
Also , no land units can hit air units, but in combat you need at least one land unit, to use air units in land combat.
Naval Combat with air units from both sides is handled OOB
Baron, thanks for the post. In terms of demographics, we seem to be the secound largest group of A&A players, after the Americans. Pretty cool I think :)
Sub-sections 3.1.3 & 3.1.4 under section 3.1 (Air Combat Round) address the issue of the fighters being overwhelmed. We decided to make things work that way because of re-occurring Air Combat Rounds.
However, for section 3.1 (Strategic Bombing Combat Rounds), you have a very valid point. I like it. I’ll see what the consensus is.
Something tells me that I’m going to have to better distinguish those two points… I think 3.1a and 3.1b will have to do.
Edit: Got it done.
As far as I can understand this air combat round,
only Fighters are rolling in this dogfight phase.
Bombers don’t roll to hit, unless taken as casualty.
Otherwise, all rolls are directed at ground or naval target.
Interesting indeed.
The bomber taken as casualty roll a special anti-air roll is an interesting feature to figure one tactical aspect on air battle.
In single opening combat round mechanic, it makes sense.
But, since there is multiple combat rounds with aircraft, it stays simpler that even shot down bombers keeps an ordinary rolls against ground targets. It can be seen as bombers were being shot down after delivering their payloads. On the next round, this bomber can no more deal damage.
Usually, SBR preceeds other kind of combats.
Fighters have to commit on interception or dogfight in Air combat round, not both, right?
Another point, which strike me: you get the opportunity with D12 system to make AAA fire more consistent with actual historical values by making it 1 /12 but instead, it is higher than OOB G40 @1/6?
I would accept that a given aircraft flying throw a TT on its way to combat zone have to submit to AAA fire in addition to any AAA in combat zone. But when you add up both, it is a wall of fire2*@3 or 4 = 6/12 or 8/12 that aircraft must pass before being able to attack.
In such a high attrition game, you can make AAA cheaper with a lower defense too.
This will keep the realistic feel without compromising any air support strategy.
I read that AAA in combat TT get a preemptive roll, then on second combat round get regular roll vs planes.
You already have a very complex rules with many variations according to target and unit which roll.
Why not consider that all AAA roll in embattled TT is regular, no preemptive, simpler?
The preemptive fire is already coming from interceptors and AAA in TTs flied over by attacker before reaching destination because attacking planes cannot retaliate and if shot down, will not make attack roll at all.
@Rank:
Exactly why we went to 1936 from oob global.
We have been tweaking the rules and mechanics too. But this is really interesting. Its like a new version of the game. I had seen some of jinx’s previous posts like the national sheets. Realy like the way you’re group is going with this. Keep it up! I’m inspired to continue our mods. So far not as ambitious as you’re group though. Id be interested to see the whole package and borrow or share some ideas. Most of ours are already posted here but I can send our modified sheets etc. They are still works of progress though every game leads to more "why don’t we? "
I suppose it wouldn’t hurt to see all of your group’s work put in a document attached to a thread. Interpreting information is hard to do when it’s not centralized, as I’m learning. I’m thinking I didn’t make it easy for people here on the thread myself.
@Baron:
Fighters have to commit on interception or dogfight in Air combat round, not both, right?
Right, not both, only one or the other.
@Baron:
Another point, which strike me: you get the opportunity with D12 system to make AAA fire more consistent with actual historical values by making it 1 /12 but instead, it is higher than OOB G40 @1/6?
I would accept that a given aircraft flying through a TT on its way to combat zone have to submit to AAA fire in addition to any AAA in combat zone. But when you add up both, it is a wall of fire2*@3 or 4 = 6/12 or 8/12 that aircraft must pass before being able to attack.
In such a high attrition game, you can make AAA cheaper with a lower defense too.
This will keep the realistic feel without compromising any air support strategy.
@Baron:
I read that AAA in combat TT get a preemptive roll, then on second combat round get regular roll vs planes.
You already have a very complex rules with many variations according to target and unit which roll.
Why not consider that all AAA roll in embattled TT is regular, no preemptive, simpler?The preemptive fire is already coming from interceptors and AAA in TTs flied over by attacker before reaching destination because attacking planes cannot retaliate and if shot down, will not make attack roll at all.
Hmm, we figured 1D12@3 and 3D12@3 for pre-emptive shots were more along the lines of what the effectiveness was for AAA. Maybe you’re correct man, I won’t pretend to know more than I do. We haven’t run into any gameplay issues yet with AAA costing 4 I.P.C.s / I.P.P.s. with pre-emptive shooting abilities. That might be another tweak that could be done.
Remember that interceptors do not have pre-emptive shots. Escorts and bombers do get to shoot back.
From what I understand so far, you would give bombers the ability to shoot back at fighters in the same fashion as AAA, except not pre-emptively. 3D12@2, with only one dice assigned to one fighter. You would also remove the pre-emptive shooting ability from AAA.
Sounds reasonable.
Your system is very detailed and complex.
I’m just trying to streamline some features so it will be easier to apply and remember rules, while keeping accurate tactical combat interactions.
For this reason, bombers in SBR and Reg combat should only make roll against ground units.
I would not use AA defense for StBs in reg combat, in SBR this can be different, AAA-like ability vs Fg, is alternate option.
On historical AA fire, I read on this forum it was 10% odds of casualty. But there was no source.
I learned that the worse and unique case of all Allied bombing raid over Europe was 30% of a given flight group.
This included interceptors.
With air combat features all over the place, I would rather apply a @1 on D12.
However, making it preemptive each combat would work at this reduced rate.
The idea is KISS, whether all or nothing. Assuming that CMove toward the embattled TT provides opportunity for AAA (and Fg stationed) along the way to shot down aircraft preemptively, it would be simpler for all AAA to work same way.
Also, at such low defense @1/12, I would allow AAA to roll vs up to 3 planes for 3 IPCs. It would be cheaper and plenty AAA but not OP.
And preemptive is a nice way to depict tactical situation for aircraft having to pass through AAA barrage before being able to dogfight.
1.1.2 Defending Combat Air Patrol fighters in sea zones may intercept at 1D12@3 once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology. Attacking/escorting fighters may roll 1D12@3
once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology, and all bomber aircraft types roll 1D12@2 once each versus defending aircraft units. Casualties are removed immediately and
combat ceases after one round.1.1.2 Defending fighters on airbases and/or aircraft carriers (both with the RADAR technology) may scramble to intercept and roll 1D12@3 once each or @4 once each with Jet
Technology. Attacking/escorting fighters may roll 1D12@3 once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology, and all attacking bomber aircraft types roll 1D12@2 once each versus
defending aircraft units. Casualties are removed immediately and combat ceases after one interception round.
Sorry,
I don’t see what you mean by scrambling, and what the difference compared to Air Patrol?
An adjacent Air Base can scramble?
If there is no Air Base along the TT passed through, there is only AAA which can fire?
It is not clear…
