@Krieghund Thanks! (For completeness, I should have been more clear in that Germany controlled Persia at the beginning of its turn in this example. i.e. there was/is a legal landing zone for the fighter)
Neutral Violations
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We have talked about a LOT of strategies for various territories. But one thing not often discussed is neutral violations.
Yes, a lot of folks have played where the Allies “bought” Spain to use as an avenue in Europe. And a few folks have probably had Japan go through Mongolia to by-pass the Yakut Stack (a good strategy if you land your tank in Manchuria on J1); or perhaps even had Russia pay for Mongolia to bypass Japan forces in Sinkiang and Yakut to strike at Japan’s undefended IPC’s.
But I am thinking in terms of 2 other potentially key neutrals… Afghan and Turkey.
Turkey in particular is an intriguing neutral for Germany to violate. If UK has moved forces to block Germany in Persia, a quick blitz through Turkey can provide extra forces for a German offensive on Caucuses.
A Japan seizure of India leaves Kazakh quickly vulnerable despite any force-deployment in Persia or a stacking of Sinkiang.
Has anyone used any of these two “secondary” neutrals to effect against opponents? If so, with what results?
Finishing on the neutrals, ‘tertiary’ neutrals would be Venezuela, as a means to get land forces from Panama to Brazil (but if Japan pays for it, it usually costs them since US can send tanks quickly through the now open land run). And Argentina, with a Cape Horn skirting Japan fleet dropping 1 INF in Argentina that then walks into Brazil to take it while on the same round the fleet moves on to land the other INF (backed up by BB and Aircraft perhaps…) into South Africa, Congo, or French Equatorial.
Non-entity neutrals would be Saudi, RDO, Sweden, Peru, Angola, and Mozambique since there is no real reason why any nation would pay to go through those areas.
Lastly, there are the “also” neutrals: Switzerland and Ireland. When I played back in college, we had read the rules that on defense an aircraft on a carrier could only land if the carrier was sunk on an island wholly contained by the sea zone the carrier was in. We had also reasoned out that UK was a Continent for such consideration, and thus UK would often “buy” Ireland as a place for UK aircraft to land if the UK carrier was sunk. Switzerland would occasionally be used for a landing zone for a suicide bomber run from Eastern US (suicide since the Germans were sure to attack to kill that one bomber). But without these apparent rule fallacies that we used back then, these neutrals really would never come into play.
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There was a former member of this site that was a big advocate of taking Mongolia with Japan on J2, he also advocated taking Sweden (with Germany) in a specific instance.
I’m not sure about Afgahn or Turkey. I’ve seen Turkey used here and there but not Afgahn.
Spain gets invaded a lot as well.
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If I’ve already won the game, but my opponent refuses to conceed, sometimes I’ll start taking neutrals to break up the boredom while I am amassing sufficient forces/tech builds to take them out. I’ll usually start with the pointless territories such as Ireland or Saudi Arabia. If I am really feeling like sending a message that this game is over, I’ll buy a battleship with Russia and place it in the Caspian Sea. :-D
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@221B:
If I am really feeling like sending a message that this game is over, I’ll buy a battleship with Russia and place it in the Caspian Sea. :-D
Now THAT is rubbing salt in an open wound! LOL
Add a tranny and DARE Japan or Germany to take Persia :-)
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Don’t have the rules on me….but do the rules allow for blitzing through neutrals?
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Don’t have the rules on me….but do the rules allow for blitzing through neutrals?
Another Hasbro flaw…
Hasbro (and my old group in college) allowed Neutrals to be blitzed. But according to page 17 of the 2nd ed manual (Milton Bradley version), all land units STOP in a neutral on initial violation (but treat it as any other territory either enemy or allied after the initial violation).
My bad. Apparently another “house rule” that made it into the software so I never thought about it.
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Non-entity neutrals would be …Sweden … since there is no real reason why any nation would pay to go through those areas.
There was a former member of this site that …advocated taking Sweden (with Germany) in a specific instance.
The Sweden manuever (best in RR) is basically moving most or all of Norways forces to Sweden (along with two inf from Germany if RR or if baltic transport survived). Then when the Allies invade Norway, you can decimate their forces (perhaps more than once) with these forces in Sweden and the German fighters and bomber.
This interupts the standard shuck-shuck and requires the Allies to consider what (if anything) to do about Sweden. Some Allied possibilities are: Attack it (and lose time and forces meant for Russias defense)? Ignore it and suck up the losses? Ship direct to Karelia (takes more time)? Reinforce Norway with Russian troops to protect the shuck-shuck (takes away from Karelia)? Take Spain or W. Europe instead of sending troops to Russia?
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Yeah, I think Panda called it the “Swedish Meatball” or something.
I used it once and ended up coming out 1 or 2 inf ahead because of it.
I used it on G2. I forget the reason but Russia didn’t take Fin on R2, so I retreated 3 inf, 1 arm to Swe.
And yeah you can gain control of Fin for that 1 extra turn for Ger.
Even a strafing run of 3 inf, 1 arm, 4 ftrs, 1 bom can kill up to 4 Allied units. Factor in if you just left the 3 inf and 1 arm to be killed, you’ll kill what about 2.
So it turns out to be 4 kills - 3 IPC for invading = 9 Allied IPC lost or about 6 IPC lost if you just stand there and defend.
Now the real bonus is if UK went in with only 2 inf and arm and US went to Afr or something. Then you can actually retake Fin for a turn.
It is a real nuiscance move.
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I’ve only tried it once, but I did like it. The game was RR, so I transported an additional 2 inf from Germany to Sweden. I got to strafe the Allies twice (they were ignoring Sweden and I really didn’t want to retake Norway prefering a second strafe instead) and came out ahead by about 3-4 inf.
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Interesting. Sounds like I may have to give that a shot mixed with a few of my other ideas (though not using AF on fleet is something I am going to have to try REAL HARD to get myself to do :-P )
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Yeah, it’s really neat, and may be able to catch your opponent by surprise.
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Im sure if you invaded a neutral they would immediately respond with an army /navy of their own to stop you and even declare war on your nation. (Use those optional rules for neutrals and their armies) If anyone I play who moves all their forces into a neutral for 3 IPC’s, I wait my turn and shake-up the board and yell “Earthquake!”
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Im sure if you invaded a neutral they would immediately respond with an army /navy of their own to stop you and even declare war on your nation. (Use those optional rules for neutrals and their armies) If anyone I play who moves all their forces into a neutral for 3 IPC’s, I wait my turn and shake-up the board and yell “Earthquake!”
This reply either belongs in Revised or House Rules. Does not apply to classic A&A
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I do use quite a few neutrals in my games. Spa, Tur, Afg, Mon quite often.
Venezuela
Occasionally if US wants to take back Bra w/o distracting fleet.Peru
Used by Japs to take Bra (in case fleet gets threatened).Argentina
Same as PeruIrealand
In the very rare case the US dont have a place to put the aa for Rocket attack on Ger.Spain
Good for allies. Germans must always be ready for Spain invasion. Can be used by allies to keep Germans honest, i.e. prevent EEu-Ukr-Cau walk.Switserland
Rarely used by axis to store aa gun (when retreating from/trading Western Europe).Sweden
Can give the allies a headache in opening rounds. If allies set up for US2 Fin attack, those US forces will lose more than they want to, or Rus needs to reinforce Fin -> less pressure on EEu or less defence in Len).Rio de Oro
No use.Angola
Occasionally used by allies to attack/trade SA in case of strong Jap fleet presence.Mozambique
Havent used it.Turkey
Usefull for both axis as allies. The allies can use Turkey to trade/send troops to Syr w/o being threatened by Jap fleet. The axis (mostly in a trn bid game) can drop units in Tur from where a lot of countries can be targeted and a lot of opcs can be generated.Saudi Arabia
Rarely used by axis as retreat option (allies pressure from Egy + Cau on Syr).Afghanistan
Ocasionally used by allies for trading Ind w/o being threatened by Jap fleet.Mongolia
Usefull for both axis as allies, but mostly used by axis (if allies start using Mon, its often an uphill game for axis). Good way in early game to pressure Rus units/stacks (f.i. arm stack in Man or Mon can reach a lot of territories). -
Germany can move infantry into spain to keep the allies from landing their.
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Insert Quote
Germany can move infantry into spain to keep the allies from landing their.As the allies that would be great! Then Germany spends the 3 ipcs and I don’t have to. Either way the Allies win because Germany must now defend Spain in addition to W. Europe, Germany and E. Europe. This will stretch the German defenses even further.
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Total agreement with Baker Street.
to limited:
Germany can also build an IC in Algeria. -
I totally disagree with the whole structure of how neutrals are treated. If in revised version your advocating “just move in and take” and thats it, then a better structure should be accomodating to the historical record. Each nation that previously was off limits should have some “neutral army” to defend itself against either coalition voilating its neutrality. Going against the basic rule of revised in any form represents a “house rule” so my point being that it should reflect what was possible. Specific nations would have larger armies (e.g. Spain and turkey). You can take this thing abit further and add something about additional german minor axis allies (again spain and turkey) but only if specific conditions are achieved.
Neutrals
Neutral countries are inactive until war is declared on them. Once a country declares war on a neutral, the country may attack and enter the airspace of the neutral country. Only Axis nations and Russia can attack neutrals. However, Russia can only attack bordering neutrals. There is no IP penalty for declarations of war. Place 3 infantry units from the opposing player whose capital is closest to the neutral country. However, Spain or Turkey receive the following units:5 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 armor, 1 fighter, 1 destroyer, and 1 IC.
The opposing player controls undefeated neutral countries and also receives their IP value. All neutrals have an IP value of one and recieve one infantry as defense. Spain and Turkey each have a IP value of three.
Bonus rules pertaining to map:
Western Canada
Western Canada is not adjacent to the Eastern Canada sea zone.Egypt
A player’s naval units can traverse through the Suez Canal only if they control Egypt.Panama Canal
The Panama Canal is treated similarly to the Suez Canal in Egypt. The Panama Canal is not a sea zone. No naval units can be located “in” the Canal. For naval and air movement purposes, the West Panama sea zone and the East Panama sea zone are considered adjacent. A player’s naval units can traverse through the Panama Canal only if he controls Panama.Turkey/Black Sea:
Turkey is adjacent to Eastern Europe. Thus, Turkey can be attacked from Eastern Europe by land (no transports are required). A player’s naval units cannot enter or exit the Black Sea from the Mediterranean unless he controls Turkey.Black Sea
A player’s naval units cannot enter or exit the Baltic Sea Zone from the North Atlantic Sea Zone unless he controls Western Europe. Finland/Norway is not adjacent to Western Europe.Gibraltar
A player’s naval units cannot move surface ships (but may move Submarines) between the West Mediterranean Sea Zone and the West Spain Sea Zone unless he controls Gibraltar. Gibraltar is not adjacent to Algeria. The West Spain Sea Zone is adjusted so that it is adjacent to Gibraltar.Western Gulf of Mexico
The small Western Gulf of Mexico sea zone located at the right side of the board is not a legal location to place new units from the Western US. This sea zone is adjacent to Mexico, the Western US, the Eastern US sea zone, and the West Indies sea zone.ADD the following IC to the map:
1)France
2)Hawaii
The IC in Hawaii does not represent the presence of heavy industry, but instead enables the realistic ability for the US to quickly deploy forces to Hawaii. -
That is indeed a house rule and should be presented there. It also uses revised rules, which should be reserved for the Revised A&A section of the forum.
This here is classic A&A, without house rules.
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The Russians can invade Turkey to allow for British bombers to land, so that they may attack the GErman fleet even if GErmany grabs Gibraltar, North Africa, and Syria. Probably right about Spain. Just a thought. I have seen the turkey invasion in an actual game though.
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