G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions)

I agree that paratrooper can be a one way ticket without airbase.
But unloading Elite from BB in an island without NB and not allowing to reembarke seems weird.

I’m pretty sure that limiting Elite to Battleship transport is enough to self-limit their usefulness, even if they have similar value than Arty, A2 D2 M1 C4, but with no combined arms combat bonus.

1 Elite moving with big plane (StB), 1 with big warship (BB), seems an interesting theme.
Any other idea for moving them by land?
I can’t think about other thing than Mechanized Infantry pairing with 1 Elite somehow.

Using bases to cap the number of Elite units that can be used at a time seems more convenient to me than using the associated units. For example, instead of a bomber or Battleship spam resulting in a cascade of airborne and marine attacks, you could cap it 1 Elite per base per turn.

Maybe this should be tied to 1 Elite per major IC+base per turn, you get 2 Elites when you have both AB and NB in major IC TTy.
So, if minor IC can’t produce them, it is a way to show how it is home-made dedicated and highly trained unit.

@Black_Elk:

Well if the marines take the island, they can build a seabee Naval Base the following round. Subdue the oposition. Or wait for a normal transport to pick them up after.

Pairing elites to a mobile ground unit is interesting. This could be a cool way to give them a land role in addition to their role at sea and in the air. I would go armor rather than mech though. This would restore some functionality to the expensive 6 ipc tank.
If you wanted to create a cap restriction similar to the naval and air base restriction, then you could tie this ability to the minor/major factory unit.

If it goes with armor moving 2, then at 4 IPCs, it can hardly be A2, it will be better than MI.
And it gets less simpler with air and amphibious attack.

Or it could be A1 D2 C4 and like ordinary Inf, getting +1 with Artillery.
Only better mobility with Tank, Bomber, Battleship.
But at such lower basic combat value, I would allow +1M with Mech Inf too.
And Elite doesn’t need to be that restricted with BB.
Limiting production to 1 per turn per major IC plus base would be enough.

I’m maybe too negative.
If there is 1 Elite unit per base with major IC per turn,  this give only a few elite units.
This Elite unit can be simply
Attack 2
Defense 2
Move 1-2
Cost 4
Can load 1 on Battleship with NB or 1 on StBomber to airdrop with AB.
Can move 2 when paired 1:1 with Tank, and blitz along with Tank.
No bonus with Artillery.

This last Elite Infantry could work for Marines, paratroopers, Royal Marines and British commandoes, and SS troopers.

I suggest that there is none of them in set-up.
They will build slowly each game turn, from intensive training due to on war status.

Maybe a DOW could be needed to allow this unit purchase?

Yea I don’t really like the idea of a 3A infantry unit either. The marines aren’t too bad since they can only do it on amphib but…I don’t think I’d go with cruisers packing them around though. You’d have half the fleet capable then which doesn’t seem ideal.

An elite air/sea unit for 4 bucks. A2 D2 M1 C4 no arty boost, battleship can pack 1. Is also a paratrooper. Most games I’ve seen with paratroopers they’re dropped from bombers which is pretty powerful. Or you could stay with the current rule where they get dropped from the AB. I don’t really like that one.  You could drop them from an air transport with no attack value. I know some people do that and which is the way I’d probably go.

Having the Bases activate them might be a little tricky. Unlike the SBRs though I think you could do it.

Or you could stay with the current rule where they get dropped from the AB.

Is it a Tech or a basic feature on TripleA?
I thought it was a Tech.

For TripleA, using AB as paratrooper/elite infantry launcher can be ok as a basic feature.
The Tech could allow for still ordinary infantry to be airdropped.

It’s a tech. You could just give it to everybody though.

Black Elk:

Agree with everything you said, except on one point: With a purchase price of 5 PUs, and the stats I described earlier, no further restrictions are needed (and, as a general matter, the less “special” rules u put on a unit, the better). I can speak from experience cuz I’ve actually play tested the unit with several players over the last few days. The unit does not get spammed. It does, however, get used in its historic function. I think allowing air drop is good, as is renaming the unit “Elite Infantry” rather than “Marine.”

@Black_Elk:

My preference would be for no purchase limit, since that seems to me rather unprecedented for A&A, at least since the earliest rulesets of Classic.

The USMC may have had 6 divisions in the war, but I’d rather preserve these units as a generic “Elite” type, and not pigeon hole them into a specific description as marines etc. I think trying to create exact ratios for a unit sculpt to historical division numbers is always problematic. Better I think to leave the purchasing as normal, without limits, and leave it up to the players discretion to decide how many to buy.

If the 5 ipc cost is the sweet spot rather than 4, then perhaps just increase the functionality/ability of the unit so they can also serve as airborne? Another combat role beyond just the amphibious invasion. I think this would be the ideal solution, since it gives the US for example,  a way to have these units used in Europe without breaking with whole Marines only in the Pac thing.

Perhaps these units could have their abilities associated with units at bases rather than just with units. For example, Elite ‘marines’ can only embark on the battleship if it moves from an opperational naval base. Or similarly Elite ‘paratroopers’ can only hitch a ride on a bomber if it takes off from an airbase. Or something along those lines. This seems a bit easier to me than introducing a separate class of infantry for each nations potential elite infantry. Just make it into a catch all.

Basically I’d put the focus on the potential strategic movement advantage, rather than the attack/defense value for the cost. Even if they had the same value as a normal infantry unit in combat, the ability to move in ways that normal infantry can’t would be a pretty strong incentive to buy some, without unleashing a spam that might occur if the unit is significantly stronger than the inf artillery combo. We don’t want the elites to totally eclipse infantry as the go to ground purchase, especially for nations that have to move across the sea to reach the action.

Using bases to cap the number of Elite units that can be used at a time seems more convenient to me than using the associated units. For example, instead of a bomber or Battleship spam resulting in a cascade of airborne and marine attacks, you could cap it 1 Elite per base per turn.

An Elite at an NB is considered a Marine, an Elite at an AB is considered airborne.

This would encourage the building of naval bases in the Pacific to move Marines around on battleships. And if used as a paratrooper, tying the elites to the AirBase rather than the bomber would place some limits on their use, like Germany in the dark skies for example.

@regularkid:

have playtested marines extensively now. The correct cost is 5 PUs for a marine that can be loaded on a battleship/cruiser, and attacks at 2 when in an amphibious assault (with no artillery support permitted).

A side benefit of a 5 PU cost is you do not need to put limits on the number of marines built, because it is self-limiting.

Is it what you have in mind Kid?
Marines/Paratrooper
Attack 1-2
Defense 2
Move 1
Cost 5
1 unit can be loaded on 1 Battleship.
Gets +1A during amphibious assault, but cannot be supported by Artillery
Gets +1A when airdropped, but cannot be supported by Artillery.
Can combine with +1A Artillery bonus in other situation.

If it is the case, I don’t see why this couldn’t be at 4 IPCs.
Here is a slightly different Elite unit:

Elite Infantry
Attack 1-2
Defense 2
Move 1-2
Cost 4
1 unit can be loaded on 1 Battleship.
Gets +1A during amphibious assault, but cannot be supported by Artillery
Gets +1A when airdropped, but cannot be supported by Artillery.
Can get +1A Artillery bonus when paired 1:1, in all other situations.
Can move 2 when paired 1:1 with Tank, and can blitz along with Tank.

How this unit can be OP, I don’t see.

Playtest it and see for yourself. Maybe you will have a different experience than me. My experience has been that the unit works perfectly with a cost of 5.

As far as artillery support is concerned, either the unit has it or the unit doesn’t have it. Because of XML limitations, you can’t have artillery support selectively in some situations and not others. And, honestly, when you start to draw rules distinctions that finely, you risk getting lost in the weeds a little bit.

The way I have it set up in the mod is that the unit gets transported on both cruisers and battleships. I haven’t integrated paradropping, so I don’t know what impact it would have.

As far as having the unit blitz with tanks, again, I don’t understand why this is necessary? What exactly are you trying to simulate?

@regularkid:

Playtest it and see for yourself. Maybe you will have a different experience than me. My experience has been that the unit works perfectly with a cost of 5.

The way I have it set up in the mod is that the unit gets transported on both cruisers and battleships.

What was exactly the combat value of the Marines you play-tested, Kid?
Was it this?
Marines
Attack 1-2
Defense 2
Move 1
Cost 5
1 unit can be loaded on 1 Battleship or Cruiser.
Gets +1A during amphibious assault, but cannot be supported by Artillery
Cannot combine with +1A Artillery bonus in any other situation.

If it is the case, the unit is weaker than regular infantry.
The high cost come from is combined arms with cruiser and nothing else.
It should be revised.

The comparative calculations I made between such Cruiser and Escorted TPs showed that it is always better to built Cruiser with Marines.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36518.msg1470463#msg1470463

On next play-test only use Battleship to carry 4 IPCs Marines, I believe it is far less OP.

That’s it exactly.

The mod is attached as a SavedGame if u’d like to try it. Game Notes explain all revisions. Would be interested to hear your playtest experience :)

G40BalanceMod (VichyFranceandMarines).tsvg

@regularkid:

As far as having the unit blitz with tanks, again, I don’t understand why this is necessary? What exactly are you trying to simulate?

@Baron:

@regularkid:

Barney:

Just had a Eureka moment! Forget marines traveling 3 to a transport (which u seem lukewarm on anyhow). And forget the 3-capacity transport, while were at it. Just muddies the waters, and there is already a lot there that needs to be tested.

Here is the epiphany:  in addition to attacking at 2 during amphibious attacks, Marines are the only units that can be transported on battleships and/or cruisers (1 to a ship)!

Can be accomplished in XML by giving transports 11 carrying points, and giving battleships and cruisers 4 carrying points. Marines have 4 carrying cost, Infantry 5, other units 6.

U like?

Interesting idea which should be tested, regularKid.
For both Cruiser and Battleship units.

This additional transportation move could also fit into my
universal Elite/Marines/Paratrooper unit:
Cost 4
Attack 2
Defense 2
Move 1-2
Sea movement bonus:
1 Elite unit can be carried on 1 Cruiser or 1 Battleship.
Transport can load 2 Elites or 1 Elite Infantry plus any other 1 ground unit.

Air movement bonus: Can be air dropped from an Air TP in CM (or must start from an active Air Base) to make a paratrooper attack drop in the first enemy territory.

Land movement bonus: Gets move 2 if paired 1:1 with Mechanized Infantry (only).

No other combined arms.

On amphibious assault, this unit imply a +1 extra-punch per TP carrying Tank on offense:
A2+A3 = A5 compared to Inf + Art, A2+A2 / Inf + Tk, A1+A3.
And 1 Inf + 1 Elite Inf gives A1+A2 in all circumstances, less than 1 Inf + 1 Art, A2+A2,
but better than 1 Inf + 1 usual Marines outside beachlanding A1+A1.

This higher attack factor for Marines/Elite unit with Tank can be explained by the use of amphibious specialized mechanized weapons, such as LVTs / Amtraks, landing crafts, etc.

It won’t be spammed because 1 Inf + 1 Art cost 7 IPCs and gives the same Attack factor @4 than 1 Marines and 1 Art, or 2 Marines which would cost 8 IPCs, 1 IPC more.

---

Giving extra +1 move paired with Tank would be too strong compared to 1 MI +1 Tk combination (A4 D5 M2 C10) vs previous idea 1 Marines + 1 Tk (A5 D5 C10).
However, a +1 bonus move with MI is quite distinctive.

This Elite Infantry at 4 IPCs gets :

1. the basic attack factor of an improved Infantry combined with Artillery (A2) without the need of combined arms, which is far below any @3 value,
2. on amphibious assault, gives the same attack factor than a usual Pacific Marines without the OP combined arms with Artillery attack @3, but you keep the higher A5 combo with Tank,
3. some special combined arms movement features on Sea, Air and Land, a kind of SEAL unit before the letter.

At A&A Strategic level, this Elite Infantry unit could represent all kinds of special forces with extra training which can do more with less logistics than Regular army men.

Here is where on this thread I started talking Elite Infantry:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36518.msg1458486#msg1458486

Elite unit represent all kind of special forces: highly motivated, intensive training, less logistic to deploy but able to do more with less compared to regular infantry unit.
It should work like a SEAL unit.
So, it becomes interesting to build some not for amphibious or airdrop but for land attack.
I want something which could work as Marines, US Rangers, paratrooper or SS trooper.

Here is a weaker and less complex bonus for Land movement

Elite Infantry/Marines/Paratrooper/Rangers:
Cost 4
Attack 2
Defense 2
Move 1 in CM, 2 in NCM
Sea movement bonus:
1 Elite unit can be carried on 1 Battleship.
Transport can load 2 Elites or 1 Elite Infantry plus any other 1 ground unit.

Air movement bonus:
Can be air dropped from an Air TP in CM (or must start from an active Air Base) to make a paratrooper attack drop in the first enemy territory.
Land movement bonus:
Gets move 2 in Non-Combat Move only.

No other combined arms.

I think thats maybe where we’re getting hung up. In my opinion, marines should be their own unit, rather than part of an “all purpose elite” unit. And since mechanized infantry (infantry that travels 2) is already a unit, I guess I don’t see the need to graft that ability onto foot soldiers. That’s not to say you couldn’t. I just don’t think the game needs it.

The only reason I added marines at all is because I was digging through the “units” folder for the G40 map,  and found unused png images for “marine” units. Then I got to thinking how having a Marines unit (capable of traveling on warships) might improve the game, and make it more fun, particularly in the Pacific.

I’d also be open to the idea of having dedicated airborne infantry, since this is a significant aspect of the war that isn’t represented at all in OOB game (except through tech, which no one uses). Obviously, there’s no “right” answer here. Its just a matter of opinion.

Actually, I wanted a universal improved infantry unit.
I wanted a wider range of usefulness, not just something which mainly works only for Marines, with a single purpose which becomes obsolete once moving inland because no different or worse than Infantry.
@Baron:

Elite units figures all kind of special forces: highly motivated, intensive training, less logistic to deploy but able to do more with less compared to regular infantry unit.
It should work like a SEAL unit.
So, it becomes interesting to build some not for amphibious or airdrop but for land attack.
I want something which could work as Marines, US Rangers, paratrooper or SS trooper.

Here is a weaker and less complex bonus for Land movement

Elite Infantry/Marines/Paratrooper/Rangers:
Cost 4
Attack 2
Defense 2
Move 1 in Combat Move, 2 in Non-Combat Move
Sea movement bonus:
1 Elite unit can be carried on 1 Battleship.
Transport can load 2 Elites or 1 Elite Infantry plus any other 1 ground unit.

Air movement bonus:
Can be air dropped from an Air TP in CM (or must start from an active Air Base) to make a paratrooper attack drop in the first enemy territory.
Land movement bonus:
Gets move 2 in Non-Combat Move only.

No other combined arms.

---

My last Elite A2 D2 CM1-NCM2 C4 gets the same  impact in amphibious than Marines unit you play-tested but its role is not limited to this situation.
It can figure for Marines during amphibious assault with Tank or from BB.
It can figure the advantageous surprise effect given to paratrooper attack.
It can figure Rangers, Waffen-SS, Royal Marines and UK commandos, and USSR Red guard (IDK about them), which were better than ordinary soldiers.

@regularkid:

I think thats maybe where we’re getting hung up. In my opinion, marines should be their own unit, rather than part of an “all purpose elite” unit. And since mechanized infantry (infantry that travels 2) is already a unit, I guess I don’t see the need to graft that ability onto foot soldiers. That’s not to say you couldn’t. I just don’t think the game needs it.

@regularkid:

**As far as artillery support is concerned, either the unit has it or the unit doesn’t have it.

As far as having the unit blitz with tanks, again, I don’t understand why this is necessary? What exactly are you trying to simulate?**

You are right. Blitz with Tank was too much and too near MI specific capacity.
However, giving NCM2 to Elite Infantry unit with no pairing bonus at all gives them autonomy and figures the higher mobility and independancy of special forces (and less combined arms, is simpler).
Also, buying this unit will not directly announce what your intent are, since they can move faster than Arty, it allows for instance Germany to either use them for Sea-Lion or Barbarossa or UK to either airdropping them or making them part of amphibious assault.

This 4 IPCs unit is very different than MI or Artillery.

MI keeps the higher mobility CM2 or NCM2, can blitz with Tank and still can get A2 too, paired with Arty.
Artillery is more powerful because of the +1A bonus to MI or Inf (for 7 IPCs, only) the best mix for your buck on TP, but move 1 CM and 1 NCM.
Elite takes less room on TP than Mech Inf or Artillery, so you can put a unique Elite+Tank A5 D5 10 IPCs worth on TP.
Elite Infantry have same attack than Artillery in itself and have the same Combat move 1,
but an higher Non-Combat Move 2, which is the same NCM than MI, but MI stay the best mobile infantry in Combat Move.

I believe this is an interesting unit between MI and Arty due to its operational flexibility.
It can follow MI and Tank in friendly TTs near battle front.
It can add more punch with an airdrop.
It can be fastly deployed with Battleship.
And it stays within A2 + D2 = 4 IPCs usual ground unit cost calculation parameter.

The 4 IPCs Elite unit is on narrow spot which gives its specific and balanced niche compared to all other ground units combos:
MI + Inf =     A2 D4 M2/M1  7 IPCs
MI + MI =     A2 D4 M2          8 IPCs, not possible on 1 TP.

Art + Inf =    A4 D4 M1          7 IPCs
Art + MI =    A4 D4 M1/M2   8 IPCs, not possible on 1 TP.
2 Artys =      A4 D4 M1          8 IPCs, not possible on 1 TP.

Elite + Inf =  A3 D4 CM1-NCM2/M1  7 IPCs
Elite + MI = A3 D4 CM1-NCM2/M2  8 IPCs
Elite + Art = A4 D4 CM1-NCM2/M1  8 IPCs
2 Elites =     A4 D4 CM1-NCM2          8 IPCs

Tnk + Inf =   A4 D5 M2/M1   9 IPCs
Tnk + MI =   A4 D5 M2, blitz 10 IPCs, not possible on 1 TP.
Tnk + Art =  A5 D5 M2/M1 10 IPCs, not possible on 1 TP.
Tnk + Elite= A5 D5 M2/CM1-NCM2 10 IPCs
Tnk + Tnk = A6 D6 M2, blitz 12 IPCs, not possible on 1 TP.

So, I still believe it should be limited to Battleship only, but cost must remain 4 IPCs.

Also, they should only be produced in Major IC.

Just found this idea from Larry Harris, maybe Marines on TP get the possibility to unload in a different TT than the other unit on board. I don’t think it can be implement on TripleA though.

@Baron:

I must add this  suggestion just to have a more complete idea about the wide range of Marines abilities:

Suggestion made on dec 02, 2010 by Larry Harris
http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4062

Marines…(and not just US Marines but the Marines of all the powers)
These units could look something like this:
Cost: 4
Attack: Normal attacks 1, Amphibious Assaults 2. In both cases they are, like infantry, promoted up one number when supported by artillery … That’s right … Marines conducting an amphibious assault and receiving Artillery support, can attack at 3.
Defense 2
Movement 1.

Special note: Marines, on one transport, can attack two different objectives at the same time.
LH-i

The question is: is there many sea-zone which boarded 2 territories in 1940, 1942.1 and 1942.2?

@Baron:

@Black_Elk:

As far as combat units go, I would set out these chief goals for fixing busted units in the current (ideally the solutions for the “problem units” should interrelated.)

Deal with the vulnerability of navies to mass bomber spams

Make the Cruiser a worthwhile purchase.
**Fix AAAguns once and for all.

Last things first, AAguns suck. This is pretty universally acknowledged. It blows that the unit sculpt is pretty cool, but it just has no good role to play in the game for most players. For me the single most annoying thing about AAguns is how they are restricted the non-combat phase. This makes them an all around headache in addition to being overpriced and underpowered. So lets fix them.**

As for Cruisers, granting them some sort of AA shot on the water, would fulfill the dual purpose of giving them a unique role to play in the naval game, while also helping to mitigate the overwhelming power of Bombers vs Navies. Does anyone object? Or see this as a non-issue? I would love to find a way to make the AAAgun into a normal combat unit, that moves during the normal combat phase, and can load and unload from transports in the same way all the other transportable units can.
If no one objects to a tweak then I would suggest that we find a way to adapt the AAAgun and the Cruiser (oerhaps in a way that doesn’t violate the current battle board core info) perhaps by granting them some special or expanded abilities?

Cruiser anti air capalities have been discussed before.
Flak that can move during combat has also been discussed.
I think it’d be nice if we took a look at some of those discussions and settled on something we can all get behind.

Not saying we need to iron out all the details right now, but just to looking for some agreement in general principle.  :-D

About AA guns, here is the link to a thread which explains my most recent idea and showed many quotes from other people in various thread. Food for thought. :)
Two simpler and balanced ways to handle AAA unit (Antiaircraft artillery)?
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36277.msg1433338#msg1433338

I just found that Larry suggested a similar AAA unit on Alpha+.1 brainstorm.
I believe anything similar should be tried to solve AAA issue.

Let me be the first one to post on this “Theorycrafting” site.

Flak guns… Just a fancy name for AA-Guns. Flak guns are a new unit. Each would be based on the historical weapon used by the different powers (TBD for sure). Hey, in other words its a new unit that has its own Attack/Defense numbers. Its own cost. It’s own capabilities and use. For example the numbers may look something like this:

Cost 5

Attacks: No attack power

Defense: Only aircraft that are attacking land units in which the Flak gun is located can be shot at. Flak guns can only roll 1 die but can roll for each round of combat, just like other units. Each Flak gun in a territory can roll up to 2 dice per round if under attack by at least 2 aircraft or more. They can be chosen as a casualty. They scores hits by rolling 1s.

Movement 1

Special notes: A player may have as many Flak guns per territory as he wishes.

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4062

My own idea on AAA wasn’t that far.

@Baron:

@Black_Elk:

As far as combat units go, I would set out these chief goals for fixing busted units in the current (ideally the solutions for the “problem units” should interrelated.)

Deal with the vulnerability of navies to mass bomber spams

Make the Cruiser a worthwhile purchase.

Fix AAAguns once and for all.

ANTI-AIRCRAFT ARTILLERY A0 D1 M1 Cost 4, 1 hit,
Each round, up to 1 preemptive defense @1 against up to 2 planes, whichever the lesser, works similar to OOB AAA but can defend each combat round.
Stop any blitz, and defend itself @1 against enemy’s ground units, if no attacking air unit is present.
Can move during combat move phase, can be taken as casualty (owner’s choice).

Interesting bit about the AAguns and marines. If AA fires every round I’d say only 1 shot. I’ve always found AA units that fire every round to be too strong but that’s just my opinion. It would definitely promote people buying AAguns. Speaking of, what do you want the AAtransport to cost Baron ? Provided I can get it to work that is :)

Anyway the elite units have been reformed. A2, D2, M1 C4. No arty boost. BB can transport 1. I’ll probably make a 5 dollar version too. They’ve also finished jump school and are ready for action. The question is how should they be transported into battle ?

Currently  there is a A0, D0, M4 +1 w/AB, may transport 1 elite into battle or ncm, C6 air transport. Which means you can’t transport them any farther by sea then you already can, although the Air can land with a land army, so you wouldn’t need a navy to protect it. UK/US will probably attack Normandy and Holland forcing Germany to defend, trade or in the case of Normandy leave it French. I know some peole do that already, which probably needs some sort of solution as it’s not really ideal. Italy could get some Med islands and canopen for Germany. ANZAC/US could use them against DNG. Japan could hit the Far East and Siberia as well hammer China. Germany out of Romania will force Russia to defend Caucasus and trade/defend Rostov, Ukraine. Russia can hit Romania, Bulgaria and Greece. Could even canopen for UK/US.

If you go with the traditional drop from bombers The added range will put Stalingrad at risk of an Italian canopener. It will also allow Scotland and Norway to be hit along with several Pacific islands. The whole Med will be pretty much be reachable. I find them to be too powerful dropped from a bomber. It definitely promotes spamming. Being dropped from a transport with 6 range and then needing a bomber escort if the TT is defended seems better to me.

You could also use the current 2 units can M3 from a AB. Would reduce spam. You’d still have the problem of Italian canopeners in the Black Sea with a AB in Romania. Right now you need a factory, NB and protection for your transports to do it. Only needing a AB would probably make it pretty standard.

I think paratroopers are a lot of fun, but they are a gamechanger :)  What do y’all think ?

Map probably isn’t big enough to accommodate paratroopers (other than in the very limited way seen in the OOB tech version). My hunch is that it would be game breaking.

@barney:

Interesting bit about the AAguns and marines. If AA fires every round I’d say only 1 shot. I’ve always found AA units that fire every round to be too strong but that’s just my opinion. It would definitely promote people buying AAguns.

Speaking of, what do you want the AAtransport to cost Baron ? Provided I can get it to work that is :)

IMO, to really compete AAA C5 vs Infantry or Artillery defending @2, with offensive capacity or 2 AAAs vs 1 Fighter defending @4, A3, able to move 4, C10, it is necessary to have at least similar defensive values because AAA is an half unit with its no offense capacity, and NCM1 only.
The single instance you get these defense value is by giving up to 2 rolls @1 vs up to 2 planes each round, and even then, when only a single plane attacks, AAA defense odds is halfed.
Inf A1 D2 C3 defends like AAA D1 up to 2 planes C4 or 5…
A3 D4 C10 defends like 2 AAA D1 up to 2 planes C8-10 (if there is at least 4 attacking planes), no offense, no mobility like plane can provide.

On cost of TP A0 D0 AAreg 1, 1hit, I suggest 8 IPCs (same price as Classic TP) to be able to easily differenciate in play-test from defenseless TP7. If you are able to gear up such unit, it could increase action in water (warships will be better to destroy TP at no risk), with no auto-die results  and would change Axis bias toward Allies bias

@barney:

Anyway the elite units have been reformed. A2, D2, M1 C4. No arty boost. BB can transport 1. I’ll probably make a 5 dollar version too. They’ve also finished jump school and are ready for action.

Good news. Both 4 and 5 IPCs should be tested on play.

@barney:

Currently  there is a A0, D0, M4 +1 w/AB, may transport 1 elite into battle or ncm, C6 air transport. Which means you can’t transport them any farther by sea then you already can, although the Air can land with a land army, so you wouldn’t need a navy to protect it. UK/US will probably attack Normandy and Holland forcing Germany to defend, trade or in the case of Normandy leave it French. I know some peole do that already, which probably needs some sort of solution as it’s not really ideal. Italy could get some Med islands and canopen for Germany. ANZAC/US could use them against DNG. Japan could hit the Far East and Siberia as well hammer China. Germany out of Romania will force Russia to defend Caucasus and trade/defend Rostov, Ukraine. Russia can hit Romania, Bulgaria and Greece. Could even canopen for UK/US.

If you go with the traditional drop from bombers The added range will put Stalingrad at risk of an Italian canopener. It will also allow Scotland and Norway to be hit along with several Pacific islands. The whole Med will be pretty much be reachable. I find them to be too powerful dropped from a bomber. It definitely promotes spamming. Being dropped from a transport with 6 range and then needing a bomber escort if the TT is defended seems better to me.

You could also use the current 2 units can M3 from a AB. Would reduce spam. You’d still have the problem of Italian canopeners in the Black Sea with a AB in Romania. Right now you need a factory, NB and protection for your transports to do it. Only needing a AB would probably make it pretty standard.

I think paratroopers are a lot of fun, but they are a gamechanger :)  What do y’all think ?

Difficult matter.
I still believe Air TP should be same cost as TP and able to carry only 1 paratrooper at 4 IPCs.
The issue is NCM at no risk, so AirTP becomes a way to rapidly bring more Infantry at the center.
Air TP A0 D0 M4+1 with AB seems a way to slow it down.

I agree, bombers drop is OP.
But first  enemy TT is good limitation on Paratrooper drop.

First play-tests should probably stay with Air Base drop based on Tech.