Cont From the AAA Thread, but about warships not AA Guns

  • '17 '16

    @Cmdr:

    @Baron:

    @Cmdr:

    I was more looking for 2 destroyer, 1 fast carrier mini-fleets to race out and clear enemy convoy raids or conduct convoy raids.��� �

    I was thinking the fast carrier itself may only defend at a 1 if at all (0 may be better, it’s stripped to the gills leaving nothing for defense and relying only on its fighter screen and escort ships) while the destroyers would protect it.

    1 CVL A0D1M3C12, ASW, carry 1 Fgt or 1 TacB
    About half the strength of reg CV but much more operational range.

    **I’d say 1 fighter only, tactical bombers need bombs and those get heavy.**� � Fighters I envision it carrying are equivalent to WWI fighters.

    Same simplicity line as early, let’s the player choose.

    CVL has 1 carrying plane capacity.
    So, if it is a TacB on a single CVL unit A3D3M4C11, it will seem a worst choice vs a much interesting Fgt A3D4M4C10.
    However, with 2 CVLs  A0D1M3C12, you can combine arms:
    1 Fgt and 1 TacB. So the TacB become A4.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    By your formula, shouldn’t it be {(Attack Value) + (Defense Value ) + (Opening Fire Value)} * 2 + 4 (Number of Hits Unit Can Sustain until Sunk) or: 
    =2(4+4+1)+4(3)
    =2(9)+4(3)
    =18+12
    =30 IPC?

  • '17 '16

    @Cmdr:

    By your formula, shouldn’t it be {(Attack Value) + (Defense Value ) + (Opening Fire Value)} * 2 + 4 (Number of Hits Unit Can Sustain until Sunk) or:�  
    =2(4+4+1)+4(3)
    =2(9)+4(3)
    =18+12
    =30 IPC?

    This formula was essentially base upon face value of unit and usually didn’t consider special capacity, since every unit got one, and doesn’t even consider the number of extra move.
    Example DD= A2D2=4x2 total 8 IPCs
    (ASW is not part of the formula)

    Optionnal HR Plunging Fire was meant to all Battleships. And as such imply a bonus capacity to increase buying and interest in them at no additional cost.

  • '17 '16

    @Cmdr:

    By your formula, shouldn’t it be {(Attack Value) + (Defense Value ) + (Opening Fire Value)} * 2 + 4 (Number of Hits Unit Can Sustain until Sunk) or: 
    =2(4+4+1)+4(3)
    =2(9)+4(3)
    =18+12
    =30 IPC?

    You made 4(3), but it is 4(2), because it is only additional hit which cost IPCs, the first hit value isnt part of the formula.

    Proof of this rule of thumb:
    CV A0D2 (2*2= 4 pts)  1 additional hit (4 pts)

    • 2 planes A3D4= (14*2= 28 points)= 36 IPCs
      36 minus 2 Fgt (10 IPCs each)= 16 IPCs for CV only. (1940 version)

    Convince about the 4 points value of an extra-hit?

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Hmm, I’d rather apply it to all ships and adjust their cost accordingly.  So maybe

    • Destroyers as a basis, so 2x (2ATT + 2 DEF) +2 Special = 10 IPC
    • Cruiser would be 2x (3 ATT + 3 DEF) +2 Special (Off Shore Bombardment) = 14 IPC
    • Carriers would be (2x (0 ATT + 2 DEF))x2 for double hits to sink + 3 Special first fighter + 3 Special second fighter = 14 IPC
    • Battleships would be 2x(4 ATT + 4 DEF)+ 2 Plunging Fire +2 for 2nd hit to damage + 2 for 3rd hit to sink +2 Off Shore Bombardment = 24 IPC
    • Submarines would be 2x(2 ATT + 1 DEF) + 2 Sneak Shot = 8 IPC
    • Transports would be 2x(0 ATT + 0 DEF) + 3 First Unit Carried + 3 Second Unit Carried = 6 IPC

    In this way the price of carriers and transports go down, but the other units go up slightly, which I think evens out over the long haul.    We could apply a 2 IPC Credit towards any warship with a base cost over 10 IPC which would make the prices work out to:

    • DD = 8 IPC = Attack 2, Defend 2, Detect Submarines, Move 2
    • CA = 12 IPC = Attack 3, Defend 3, Shore Bombard 3, Move 2
    • AC = 12 IPC = Attack 0, Defend 2, Carry 2 Fighters, Move 2
    • BB = 22 IPC = Attack 4, Defend 4, Plunging Fire, 3 Hits to sink, Move 2
    • SS = 8 IPC = Attack 2, Defend 1, Sneak Shot, Move 2
    • TRN = 6 IPC = Cargo two ground units, Move 2

    So with the credit, only the BB, AC and SS have price changes but they all have some basis in mathematics to justify their cost!  Just a note, I made all cargo units +3 each to get the price of transports back up. Â

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Yea, we tried posting same time.

    Good with it, but it’s convoluted to me.  2 for special combat, 2 for each combat “point” (attack value + defense value) and 3 for each cargo unit seems to work just fine.  I don’t mind dropping the price of carriers because they are useless without their cargo.

  • '17 '16

    @Cmdr:

    Yea, we tried posting same time.

    Good with it, but it’s convoluted to me.  2 for special combat, 2 for each combat “point” (attack value + defense value) and 3 for each cargo unit seems to work just fine.  I don’t mind dropping the price of carriers because they are useless without their cargo.

    How did you establish the different value?

    I suggested mine base on a simple inference from regular combat unit.
    But, it doesn’t work for planes, neither for AAA guns.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I started with the destroyer being 8 IPC and worked out a divisor for the attack and defense values.  It worked out, there are very minor changes, mainly the submarine is 2 IPC more expensive as is the cruiser, but the aircraft carrier is 2 ipc cheaper and the battleship with its added benefit of an extra hit and plunging fire is where it was in classic in cost.

    If we took off shore bombardments off, the cruiser is the same as it was, and the bb is 22 ipc where you suggested.

  • '17 '16

    @Cmdr:

    I started with the destroyer being 8 IPC and worked out a divisor for the attack and defense values.�  It worked out, there are very minor changes, mainly the submarine is 2 IPC more expensive as is the cruiser, but the aircraft carrier is 2 ipc cheaper and the battleship with its added benefit of an extra hit and plunging fire is where it was in classic in cost.

    If we took off shore bombardments off, the cruiser is the same as it was, and the bb is 22 ipc where you suggested.

    Why are you trying to revised all the established cost?
    If your formula isn’t able to predict the basic units, for me the formula need correction.

    The formula that I applied is A and D point1 for ground unit.
    A and D point
    2 for naval unit.
    Planes and AAA seems arbitrarily fixed by Larry upon long experience.
    Transport are another difficult case.
    Special ability are not part of the formula but developped differently.
    Inf A1D2= 3  Art A2D2= 4 MecInf A1D2+1M=4 Arm A3D3= 6
    Sub A2D12=6  DD A2D22=8  CA A3D32=12
    BB A4D4
    2+4 (1 hit)= 20 IPCs.

    I can tell that’s the second capacity which cost something.
    But, I find CA cost too much, so I add M3.
    A CVL A0D1M3 ASW and carry 1 Fgt.
    1 Plane 72= 14  +(12)=2 + 2 for 1 xtr Move + 2 for ASW= 20
    So, it will cost only 10 IPCs.

    Unless you made it A1D1 but in 1940, CV has A0.
    Is it too low 10 IPCs?


  • Give Germany super subs?

    And give USA war bonds,

    I like giving enhanced shipyards to UK, but not to ANZAC

    Adding units such as, escort carriers, are more for a smaller tactical game

    I would argue they are already represented in the game


  • I thought about this today,

    It goes along the lines of letting Cruisers hit planes when they roll a 1

    If unit X rolls a 1, then…

    -Super Submarines on offense only can choose surface target hit (TRN, CV, CA, BB) cannot choose destroyers or other subs, transports are valid
    -Destroyers on offense and defense can choose a submarine hit (SS)
    -Cruisers on offense and defense can choose an aircraft hit (FG, TAC, STRT)
    -Battleships on offense and defense can choose a surface target hit (TRN, DD, CV, CA, BB) transports are valid targets

    -Tanks on defense and offense can choose ground hit (INF, MECH, ART, ARM, AAA)
    -Fighters on defense and offense can choose air hit (FG, TAC, STRT)
    -Tactical bombers on offense and defense can choose ground target (INF, MECH, ART, ARM, AAA) Land combat only
    -Strategic bombers on offense only; the defender will choose 2 hits instead of one (Bomber killed 2 guys instead of 1) Land combat only

    This would be a ruleset for a G40 ‘enhanced’ version

    Cruisers would also have a +1 movement

  • '17 '16

    I agree with the way you define each “critical hit” for each unit.
    Why did you forget the regular sub on attack?
    Is it because of A2 only?
    At least, when no ASW are present, on roll of “1” give the choice between TT and combat vessels (defender’s choice).

    I also answered your former post in the other tread, which is specially about carrier.


  • @Baron:

    I agree with the way you define each “critical hit” for each unit.
    Why did you forget the regular sub on attack?
    Is it because of A2 only?
    At least, when no ASW are present, on roll of “1” give the choice between TT and combat vessels (defender’s choice).

    I also answered your former post in the other tread, which is specially about carrier.

    Because subs at 6 IPC choosing targets everyother time they hit would be overpowered ?
    And submarine torpedoes were terrible in early WWII ?

    but with tech advances…

    Now the supersub tech is almost as good as heavy bombers ;)

  • '17 '16

    @Cmdr:

    Per your post: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=30262.0#new Baron - I like where you are going, but you didn’t list how to differentiate between carrier types. =^_^=

    I’ve also played with escort carriers (again with a control marker under them) but they cost 12 IPC, can only hold 1 fighter, but can move 3 spaces (at the same time, our destroyers for all nations were increased from 2 spaces to 3 spaces.�

    I’d give all nations hunter-seeker destroyers: Â Cost 6 IPC, Move 3, Attack 1, Defend 2, can detect submarines. Â The idea are these are unsupported ships that travel in maybe groups of 3, mostly fodder units (to replace the loss of being able to use transports as fodder, if you so desire) but their main job is to go out and clear out convoy raiding submarines. Â

    Thinking about it,
    I rather prefer hunter-seeker destroyers like this:
    Fast hunter-seeker DD A2D1M3C7 ASW.
    I see them as an advance patrol craft which is faster, has more operative range but is less armored than regular DD.
    There is no need to lower the cost to 6 IPCs since it is a give and take: M3 but D1.
    Caution: Multiplying ASW ship will unbalance vs Subs.
    “Danger and addiction grow with consumption.” :wink:

    Now, you have 3 types of ship in this advance Task Force vs Subs:
    ** CA  A3D3M3C12  1 hit, bombard 1@3.
    Fast DD A2D1M3C7  1 hit, ASW.
    CVL   A0D1M3C11 1 Hit, ASW, carry 1 plane.
    1 Fgt  A3D4M4C10 1 hit, can attack sub when paired with ASW.**

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I’d argue the formula is correct, the cost of certain units are not.  For instance, there are too many cruisers because they are cheaper than they should be.  Just as one example.

  • '17 '16

    @Cmdr:

    I’d argue the formula is correct, the cost of certain units are not.  For instance, **there are too many cruisers because they are cheaper than they should be.**  Just as one example.

    You really want to argue about these 2 OOBs units?

    3 BB are a better than 5 cruiser on any battlecalculator.
    Same 60 IPCs. 66% survival for BBs 28%, for Cruiser.

    Cruisers are overpriced.

    Is this a Global anomaly in your game?
    Are they bad purchasers?

    http://www.campusactivism.org/aacalc/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=5&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=3&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

  • '17 '16

    @Cmdr:

    I’d argue the formula is correct, the cost of certain units are not.  For instance, **there are too many cruisers because they are cheaper than they should be.**  Just as one example.

    I suggest also to try this the next game. If they still buy cruiser then they are definitively lost… :wink:
    @Baron:

    Hi Cmdr Jen,
    a BB@5 and 1BB@4 + 1@1 is very different, since you can get two hits in the first round.

    I’m thinking about it, and heard that many US admirals feared the Yamato and forbid a direct combat with ships against it.

    Maybe this BB @1 can be 1 first strike against surface vessels only: DD,CA,CV,BB, (and even TT, if their is both scramble planes and TTs)
    I think that can inspire some kind of fear of risking a direct shot without being able to be in range of the BB group.
    Don’t you think it could be more historically grounded, seems you like navy battle?

  • '17 '16

    I like this HR for BBs but it is too powerfull vs cruiser as we all can see:
    BB 1@1 can be 1 first strike against surface vessels only: DD,CA,CV,BB, (and even TT, if their is both scramble planes and TTs)

    And 28 % of survival will decrease probably around 20%.

    I heard this: why repair what is not broken?  :|
    If I ever introduce this BB HR, for sure, I will give 1 preemptive AA shot/cruiser. Just to counterbalance a bit.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Below is a copy of the listing I had for all naval units, using a non-complicated algebraic equation:

    • DD = 8 IPC = Attack 2, Defend 2, Detect Submarines, Move 2
    • CA = 12 IPC = Attack 3, Defend 3, Shore Bombard 3, Move 2
    • AC = 12 IPC = Attack 0, Defend 2, Carry 2 Fighters, Move 2
    • BB = 22 IPC = Attack 4, Defend 4, Plunging Fire, 3 Hits to sink, Move 2
    • SS = 8 IPC = Attack 2, Defend 1, Sneak Shot, Move 2
    • TRN = 6 IPC = Cargo two ground units, Move 2

    2(Attack Value + Defense Value) + Special Ability 1 + Special Ability 2 + Special Ability 3 - 2 Corrective = Cost of Naval Unit
    (if the unit does not have a 1st, 2nd and/or 3rd special ability, input 0 for these numbers.)

    As you can see, the Cruiser cost isn’t different.  Maybe it should be raised to 14 since it really is better if you look at them on a per round purchase scale.  For instance, if a nation has 24 IPC are they purchasing 1 battleship, or would they go for 2 cruisers?  (Let’s assume they have destroyers already and aircraft carriers.)  Not unheard of, ANZAC, India, the United States (if they split build) Italy, Germany and England may all be in that situation numerous times during a game.  If you compare 2 cruisers to 1 battleship, the 2 cruisers far exceed the value of the battleship as they have greater attacking punch, greater defending punch and more shots per round, which is a small price to pay since you cannot afford a destroyer with the 4 IPC left over from the battleship purchase.

    If we look at the prices, we see they are almost identical to what is in the book, but some units are changed.  (Note: the cruiser isn’t one of them!)

    The submarine went back up in price to 8 IPC.  I would say, to justify this cost, we take a page from the AAR:enhanced rulebook.  Submarines, when attacking without aircraft or surface ships, may “call their shot” on the first shot.  Before the first round, dedicate what ship each submarine will be aiming for (transports are valid for this) and then roll each attack separately…by that I mean, if there are 5 submarines aiming for the carrier and 3 for the battleship, then roll the 5 for the carrier, determine hits, then roll against the battleship.  That would certainly justify returning the price to the historic norm, at least for me.

    Battleships went up in price, again by 2 IPC, but we agreed to give them plunging fire allowing them 2 shots in round 1 (1@1 and 1@4.)

    The sticking point are the aircraft carriers that went down in price from 16 to 14 (a minor change.)  Considering Larry seems perfectly happy with them costing 13 IPC (he did allow it if you had shipyards tech) it doesn’t seem like much of a stretch to assume they may be a little over priced.  However, to justify it, we could bar them from engaging the enemy on an attack so they cannot even be used to soak hits, which makes historical sense.  Japan and the United States went to great lengths to keep their carriers out of combat when attacking and to focus their attacks on attacking the enemy carriers, why would either of the two fleet admirals suddenly want to push their carriers up to the front lines to soak hits?  So now, if they cannot use their 2 hit ability on attack, but only on defense, a minor shift downward seems logical.

    The rest of the units are not changed.

  • '17 '16

    Cmdr Jen,
    Why erasing OOB BB?
    You can certainly keep the one A4D4M2C20, 2 hits, 1 bombard @4.

    And create your Bismarck/Yamato class super BB:
    A4D4M2C22?-24-26, 3 hits, 1 bombard @4, 1@1 First Strike Plunging Fire vs DD, CA, CV, BB.

    Isn’t?

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