The aberration of the defenseless transport

I miss D-Day. It never happens anymore, makes moo sad.

@Cow:

I miss D-Day. It never happens anymore, makes moo sad.

You mean Germany is too powerful and USA too involved in Pacific?

Yeah I feel a transport buff would even it out. Give USA more options without changing the pacific up much.

Also in global if you do a full on KJF you typically contain Japan, but lose Russia… usually containing Japan about a round or two late so axis Europe gets a solid jump for the VC win in Europe.

@Cow:

Yeah I feel a transport buff would even it out. Give USA more options without changing the pacific up much.

Also in global if you do a full on KJF you typically contain Japan, but lose Russia… usually containing Japan about a round or two late so axis Europe gets a solid jump for the VC win in Europe.

Maybe it could be a question to ask at this point of discussion.
Which type (amongst the numerous develop) of TT rule should even out the Axis advantage over Allies?
Is it simply Classic TT at 8 IPCs ? Or is it too much?
And under the Taken last rule? Which one?

An automatic-kill with plain defense for TT or a dice-roll attack vs little defense?

Could we also move this thread to house rules, if you all of the sudden after about a month decide other threads (such as the one I started) belong there?  Thanks!!

Lol… good show old bean! Way to show them what for!

@Der:

Just as a follow-up we recently played an 11 hour game with five players using 10 IPC classic transports with Global '40 carrying capacity and it played out great - no one missed the chosen last, auto-kill transports at all.

And what was the tactical decision about the naval casuality?

How often were TTs chosen as first casuality?

How often were they kept till the end instead of warships, like cruiser or carrier+ planes?

We’re very few warships purchased in favor of transport spams?
Like it is in revised?

Already stated too many times in this thread that only an idiot would spam trannies when a destroyer is a far better screening ship. I think Trannies should still have a defense. Played some recent F2F games and didn’t make much of a difference for or against except that nobody was able to dominate the sea by transport or air power.

@Uncrustable:

We’re very few warships purchased in favor of transport spams?
Like it is in revised?

Destroyers and BBs cost quite a bit more then too. DDs in revised were more like the role of the cruiser, hence not built often just like now.

Quite simply, I hated classic transport. Because everyone did spam them. And warships were rarely purchased.

Even with destroyers at 8 it would make more sense to spam trannies at same cost with 1 less defense, because you force your opponent to defend all over the place against amphibious assault, and you could always get the odd chance at sniping an enemy capital

It’s makes for a very stale game

@Uncrustable:

Quite simply, I hated classic transport. Because everyone did spam them. And warships were rarely purchased.

Even with destroyers at 8 it would make more sense to spam trannies at same cost with 1 less defense, because you force your opponent to defend all over the place against amphibious assault, and you could always get the odd chance at sniping an enemy capital

It’s makes for a very stale game

I totally get what you’re saying but I also agree with DK. You’d have to be a total idiot to use Trannies as an effecient screen. My big beef is that many of these rule changes to many units in the history of A&A seem more to accomodate the sales pitch of why you should buy the latest edition. I see alot of rule changes to retroactivley make sense to accomodate new units. It seems LH has been making the A&A games into more of a “play-set” rather than a game.

Many of these rules are justified with “George-Lucas-esque” retroactive connectivity by LH and WOTC. An arguement is made with tactical examples mixed with strategic justification. This in my opinion is resulting in some of the confusion and dissappointment within the community. I can play with new or classic rules just fine. However just because LH says it doesn’t make it right nor does it make it make sense. Hence DK and others who agree are not some kind of unthinking moron player just because the TripleA generation of gamers and LH say so.

I can play by either set of rules, but much of the arguement is justifeied on dubious or weak reasons and arguements, based upon excuses that cater to sales and “videogamers” who want to keep thier scoreboard stats high.

your argument is the worst IMO, while i provided ingame scenarios, you just go on some type of old man serman about the good ol days :P

literally none of your argument applies to the game. The most recent changes, esp to naval, have made the game more fun to play, this is evident by the sheer number of G40 games played on tripleA alone

how many games of classic and/or revised are played for every game of global?

my argument: classic trannies made the game stale because they were spammed and warships were rarely purchased. go play some games of revised on GTO, you will see just how stale naval combat is with transports that defend

your argument: erehggh im old! george lucas ruined star wars, turn off the dammned rock and roll,back in my da……snore…

LH came up with all the origional rules, and through many years of testing/tweaking and community input, we have the better game that is now

just because it is change, and its not like it used to be, doesn’t make it terrible

now go put your pants on gramps!

@Uncrustable:

your argument is the worst IMO, while i provided ingame scenarios, you just go on some type of old man serman about the good ol days :P

literally none of your argument applies to the game. The most recent changes, esp to naval, have made the game more fun to play, this is evident by the sheer number of G40 games played on tripleA alone

how many games of classic and/or revised are played for every game of global?

my argument: classic trannies made the game stale because they were spammed and warships were rarely purchased. go play some games of revised on GTO, you will see just how stale naval combat is with transports that defend

your argument: erehggh im old! george lucas ruined star wars, turn off the dammned rock and roll,back in my da……snore…

LH came up with all the origional rules, and through many years of testing/tweaking and community input, we have the better game that is now

just because it is change, and its not like it used to be, doesn’t make it terrible

now go put your pants on gramps!

Like I said I get what you’re saying, I have no problem with playing with 0/0/2/7 trannies. but acting as if it is some revelation of genius from LH is horseshit. Go ahead and call me gramps too, I’m 35 and played F2F far more than any TripleA which I’d guess where most of the disargreement comes from. I’m also not an idiot and neither is anyone else who sees through the lines that most of the reasons for rules changes are an aquiessence to sales and marketing.

Don’t really care either way, fact is A&A is a business venture that’s fine. The arguement that this is some form relevatory genius and historical accurate revision is bogus. It has more to do with accomodating a sales driven game push is reality. My old crew wanted more units either way, a lot of the people who complain about OP units are the same people that complain when some new DLC on Battlefield or COD gives players a new gun etc.

I play those “new-fangled video games” too but let’s call it what it is, new units and new sales. Trying to sell them in a D6 format is hard.

@Uncrustable:

your argument is the worst IMO, while i provided ingame scenarios, you just go on some type of old man serman about the good ol days :P

literally none of your argument applies to the game. The most recent changes, esp to naval, have made the game more fun to play, this is evident by the sheer number of G40 games played on tripleA alone

how many games of classic and/or revised are played for every game of global?

my argument: classic trannies made the game stale because they were spammed and warships were rarely purchased. go play some games of revised on GTO, you will see just how stale naval combat is with transports that defend

your argument: erehggh im old! george lucas ruined star wars, turn off the dammned rock and roll,back in my da……snore…

LH came up with all the origional rules, and through many years of testing/tweaking and community input, we have the better game that is now

just because it is change, and its not like it used to be, doesn’t make it terrible

now go put your pants on gramps!

Also kind of funny how personal you get about your argument. If you read I also stated I got where you were coming from and that I’ve played either set of rules for transports and have no problem playing either set.

*Edited to be nice for the young folks  :mrgreen:

Idk or care about historical accuracy

i just hated when fleets consisted of mostly transports and what few battles there were was just transport trade offs

whether making transports defenseless was ‘genius’ (by LH) or not, is pretty irrelevent, when considering the fact that the entire game/series was created from scratch by LH, and his ‘genius’ has kept this game alive for what? 40 years? that is damn impressive

how many games can say that? yeah id say it was/is genius, because of instead of the game fading off into the sunset, it remains a staple tabletop game in the strategy/war section.

all this just because of transports? no of course not, but it is the culmination of updates/improvements that make the game what it is

what really makes this game great is LH listens to the community, and will combine his ideas with those of the community to better shape the game

@Uncrustable:

Idk or care about historical accuracy

i just hated when fleets consisted of mostly transports and what few battles there were was just transport trade offs

whether making transports defenseless was ‘genius’ (by LH) or not, is pretty irrelevent, when considering the fact that the entire game/series was created from scratch by LH, and his ‘genius’ has kept this game alive for what? 40 years? that is damn impressive

how many games can say that? yeah id say it was/is genius, because of instead of the game fading off into the sunset, it remains a staple tabletop game in the strategy/war section.

all this just because of transports? no of course not, but it is the culmination of updates/improvements that make the game what it is

what really makes this game great is LH listens to the community, and will combine his ideas with those of the community to better shape the game

There are plenty of games like this and others that have been around for years. This game is from 1982, so not 40 years.
Do you actually own a real copy of any Axis & Allies Game?

Do you think DK who has a big ass Axis&Allies room in his home just is whining and bitching about transports as some un-experinced noob? A wise TripleA player like you knows SOOOOOO much better than some fools who simply were discussing why they liked the old rule better. Which they probably played before YOU were born.

They changed rules in all major sports and previous generations I’m sure previous generations complained about them too.

You called down the thunder sir so show and prove. Tell us about your first game, what editions you own.
You know, anything besides tripleA, which by the way supposedly has nothing to do with your best buddy Larry and technically breaks all kinds of copyright law.

We (playtesters for the AA50) talked him into/worked with him to come up with defenseless transports based on our experiences with other games.

The main example being this game (the first edition):
http://www.ww2wargame.com/

That game along with Xeno’s Europe/Russia at War have more involved combat systems that allow for air to air combat prior to each round of ground or sea combat.  As such, nuances like naval AA and extra warships (cruisers and destroyers) allow for defenseless transports.

Classic (and even Revised) transports could be said to have escorts (corvettes, destroyer escorts, etc.) that are included in the unit but not big enough to warrant an individual piece at this scale.  That way they have a defensive number but not an offensive number.  Also, the inclusion of two hit battleships and now two hit carriers have shifted the damage taking to warships.

Is it perfect?  No.  But the using of transports as hit takers is a joke.  On the scale of the Classic and Revised games, it is a necessary evil.  Only by giving the map more sea zones can you then bring in more units and start differentiating better between the unit capabilities.  We were able to start that transition in AA50 because of the expansion of the map.  And it continued in Global.

How about reducing the cost of these defensless transports to say $4 and keep the rules.
How about reducing the cost of all Navy’s significantly and introducing the escort at say $4. That brings you back to an $8 transport that can be defended and it is an actual warship(escort) doing the fighting.

Be reducing the cost of all Navy’s, maybe you can have a realistic battle of the Atlantic.
Subs cost $4 and base the cost of all other Navy’s off of that.