Military History's Best Loser

@Imperious:

You look like and Idiot IL. Congratulations.

Nice grammar!

In your words:
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and the starving was in the third punic war, which we are NOT TALKING ABOUT.

In histories words:

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The Roman army under Quintus Fabius Maximus intentionally deprived Hannibal of open battle, while making it difficult for Hannibal to forage for supplies

Now you shift to another event? In the third Punic war the capital of Carthage was put into protracted siege. This is the only time where the fight was across the sea because the invasion force traveled entirely by the Mediterranean. However, we are not talking about this.

THE BATTLE OF ZAMA WAS ACROSS THE SEA FROM ROME. DURING THE SECOND PUNIC WAR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Zama

I don’t know how much clearer I can point that out…

Wrong x 2

What about this Failed Statement of yours?

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Imperious Loudmouth SAYS: and the starving was in the third punic war, which we are NOT TALKING ABOUT.

Hey IL, NEWSFLASH Hannibal wasn’t alive during the third punic war, and the romans STARVED his army during the second.

Newsflash: i didn’t say he was alive or not, unless you are so dumb as to think Hannibal changed his name to the " third Punic war"?

• Realizing that Hannibal’s army was outrunning its supply lines quickly, Rome took countermeasures against Hannibal’s home base in Africa by sea command and stopped the flow of supplies.
• The Roman army under Quintus Fabius Maximus intentionally deprived Hannibal of open battle, while making it difficult for Hannibal to forage for supplies

The war was from Spain with an army raised in Spain. You failed again to learn.

1. Admit the truth, you’re wrong.

2. Conceed! �

3. You’re surrounded!

4. You just lost your battle of ZAMA! OVER THE NET

Pwnd. � Your ineptitude triggered your spam.

well spoken 13 year old kid who has no clue and still posts like a child.

For a guy who makes maps for a living, you should know how to read one.

You see the LEGEND?  Where it says MAJOR BATTLES.

Now look at ZAMA in AFRICA. Across the sea from Italy.  And what do you see?  A MAJOR BATTLE across the Sea….

THE BATTLE OF ZAMA WAS ACROSS THE SEA FROM ROME. DURING THE SECOND PUNIC WAR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Zama

I don’t know how much clearer I can point that out…

Wrong x 2

LOL…… fought at the end of the 2nd Punic war. It doesn’t change the fact that the war was over land.

The Second Punic War (218 BC � 201 BC) is most remembered for the Carthaginian Hannibal’s crossing of the Alps. His army invaded Italy from the north and resoundingly defeated the Roman army in several battles, but never achieved the ultimate goal of causing a political break between Rome and its allies.

IL Per your statements. Do you actually believe the Battle of Zama never happend?

In the third Punic war the capital of Carthage was put into protracted siege. This is the only time where the fight was across the sea because the invasion force traveled entirely by the Mediterranean.

Because you say that the only battle -across the sea- occurred during the third punic war?

History tells a much different story than your “American” version of events.

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For a guy who makes maps for a living, you should know how to read one.

I don’t make them for a ‘living’ but so others to use and enjoy.

You see the LEGEND?  Where it says MAJOR BATTLES.

Now look at ZAMA in AFRICA. Across the sea from Italy.  And what do you see?  A MAJOR BATTLE across the Sea….

At the end of the war, the final battle…

The war was conducted primarily from land to land into Rome. Not across the sea. Get it right, just once.

The war was from Spain with an army raised in Spain.

ARE THERE ELEPHANTS IN SPAIN?!?!?!?!??!

ARE THERE ELEPHANTS IN SPAIN?!?!?!?!??!

They were transported into Spain by boat, raised and traveled by land into the Alps.  Some of them were from India.

But when the war started and was mostly fought, it was by LAND.

LAND

Let’s see here IL… according to all of your arguements

1. The Battle of Zama did not occur because there were no overseas battles

2. Hannibal had no elephants, because he raised his army in spain

3. Hannibal won the second punic war because his army wasn’t starved as starving/seige only occured in the third punic war.

Wow…

Further evidence supporting my supposed false claim #1

Furthermore, the morale effect of this victory was such that most of Southern Italy joined Hannibal’s cause. After the Battle of Cannae, the Hellenistic southern provinces of Arpi, Salapia, Herdonia, Uzentum, including the cities of Capua and Tarentum (two of the largest city-states in Italy) all revoked their allegiance to Rome and pledged their loyalty to Hannibal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae

@Last:

Further evidence supporting my supposed false claim #1

Furthermore, the morale effect of this victory was such that most of Southern Italy joined Hannibal’s cause. After the Battle of Cannae, the Hellenistic southern provinces of Arpi, Salapia, Herdonia, Uzentum, including the cities of Capua and Tarentum (two of the largest city-states in Italy) all revoked their allegiance to Rome and pledged their loyalty to Hannibal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae

Acceptable supporting facts.  That’s what we need to see.  I retract my claim having seen you prove your own!

http://www.electrummagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Hannibal-journey-map.png

Only Gargantua can take a map which clearly shows where by dates the war began and was mostly fought ( by land) by commanders who fought on land, and call the Punic Wars a war fought across the sea. The map you posted shows very clearly that all the major battles occurred from the direction of Spain, so if you were to say “was this a war between the sea, or a war between two points across land” you would infer this was clearly a war from land to land.

You fail again.

IL believes elephants come from spain. I don’t know how that can be fixed unless he admits he was mistaken.

Regretably… he lacks the -adult level maturity- to do that.

How do Elephants get from Africa to Europe?  Anyone care to explain this mystery?

Oh wait… let me guess… they ride on a boat right?  Or did Hannibal have RAIL movement!!!

IL Per your statements. Do you actually believe the Battle of Zama never happend?

Quote
In the third Punic war the capital of Carthage was put into protracted siege. This is the only time where the fight was across the sea because the invasion force traveled entirely by the Mediterranean.

Because you say that the only battle -across the sea- occurred during the third punic war?

History tells a much different story than your “American” version of events.

It happened at the end of the 2nd Punic War. The war itself began and was conducted from Iberia, not across the sea.

To make an analogy the Germans take France and latter take Corsica. By your account the campaign was a war across the sea? How stupid do you look?

IL believes elephants come from spain. I don’t know how that can be fixed unless he admits he was mistaken.

Never said they were born in Spain, they were shipped to Spain and raised for the coming campaign. The war didn’t come from the sea, it came from Iberia.

You still lose…

Regretably… he lacks the -adult level maturity- to do that.

Actually this is what a baby Gargantua posts:

1. Admit the truth, you’re wrong.

2. Conceed! �

3. You’re surrounded!

4. You just lost your battle of ZAMA! OVER THE NET

Pwnd. � Your ineptitude triggered your spam.

Yes very revealing and adult.

Well initially Mr. Crunch claimed that bringing the elephants to Europe was quite a feat.  I tend to disagree because of the route taken and the fact the route was not contested. Hannibal only had to transport the elephants, oversea, the short distance from North Africa to southern Spain. And again this route was not contested by the Romans. Getting the elephants over the Alps WAS quite a feat.

The way the debate initially began was my claim which was something like this - Napoleon’s subjugation of continental Europe is more impressive than Hannibal’s failed invasion of Italy.

After reading that Mr. Crunch came in with his “quite a feat” and it has deteriorated to this.

It was enhanced with people who understand the truth and dispel the falsehood of people, with heads made of wood so dense that even termites wouldn’t bother.

The war was clearly a war from land to land from tracing all the battles and where the campaign originated from. Because one battle in the last year was over the sea, does not make a war fought “across the ocean”

And that info is from the wood heads postings where they post the opposite of what they think the map clearly shows.

Perhaps we need to go back to the basics and define WAR and BATTLE and CAMPAIGN.

WAR
1. a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air.
2. a state or period of armed hostility or active military operations: The two nations were at war with each other.
3. a contest carried on by force of arms, as in a series of battles or campaigns: the War of 1812.

The two nations were Carthage and Rome.

Those nations primarily were based in different continents with a sea between them.  One nation launches a war on the other and the nations have a sea between them.  I do not count Spain as an integral part of Carthage, it was a colony and on net took more resources from Cartage then it provided Hannibal.

Battle
1.a hostile encounter or engagement between opposing military forces: the battle of Waterloo.
2.participation in such hostile encounters or engagements: wounds received in battle.
3.a fight between two persons or animals: ordering a trial by battle to settle the dispute.

Campaign
1.Military .
a. military operations for a specific objective.
b. Obsolete . the military operations of an army in the field for one season.
2. a systematic course of aggressive activities for some specific purpose: a sales campaign.
3. the competition by rival political candidates and organizations for public office.

The overseas war that Carthage launched on Rome started with a campaign launched from a base/colony in Spain where many recruits were gained and many battles occurred.

See, IL, the problem is you don’t know meaning of basic words.  But again, you were sure Hannibal was born in Turkey so its no wonder big words confuse you.  Please consult a dictionary before engaging in a battle wits with me as you are poorly armed.

Last Jack, I agree, getting the elephants over the alps was more of a feat then getting them across the sea.  However, Carthage didn’t have control of the sea or have much of a navy in the second punic war.  But I do agree with you, alps crossing more impressive.