Geman attack on Oslo or Goteborg on first turn?

@CraigBee:

Could someone walk me through a successful German amphibious assault on Oslo or Goteborg that takes two rounds of combat the first turn?

This would answer a myriad of questions I have about fortifications, neutral navy disposition after a capital is lost, and neutrals in general.

Thanks!

I’m going to go through these separately because some events could make a big deference.

A successful German amphibious assault on Oslo (Norway). Norway is a strict neutral so the Germans would need to fight their way in (so would the UK). The Norway navy is in sz7 though, so if you amphib you should attack through sz17 IMO. This will allow you a chance to capture or scuttle part of the Norway fleet if you capture the capital Oslo (new w/5.1 rules), and not have to fight through it (see pg30). First thing is that forts defend in different ways (see list pg32). The fort on Oslo only def against attacks from the sea (amphibs). If Germany puts units on a transport and attacks w/amphib, it activates the fort. The fort rolls 2 12d dice looking for 5 or less. The one neutral inf in Oslo would also get +2 (def at 6 or less). This is only for the first round of the battle, after that the fort doesn’t fire and the def inf would roll at its normal value of 4 or less (if still alive). Once the unit(s) is killed and the territory is captured the fort is removed (it can’t be used as a casualty, or take damage). I believe that if the fort is activated (an amphib), that any attacking unit could/would be taken as a causality including units that came from adjacent land territories and air units (but not 100% sure). Question for Variable

One way to by pass the fort is to attack Oslo from Finland. Turn one take Narvic, and turn two attack Oslo with a couple inf and air units (no amphib, no fort), you could even buy a couple paratroopers G1, and take it by air only G2 (again no amphib, no fort). UK isn’t generally in a position to do much about it if you hammered their navy G1 using the second impulse.

I haven’t yet played with the new rules for when you capture a pro or strict neutrals capital. The key word there I believe is capture (make an attack). I believe if the neutral power is pro your side, you still non combat move in to claim all. There would be no dice rolling for ships etc (from what I can tell).

The Germans are probably better off waiting on Goteborg (Sweden) because later in the game it has a good possibility of becoming a pro axis territory, same with Spain (read pg30). FYI if the Germans meet the requirements for Sweden or Spain to go pro axis during the German combat phase (say capture Moscow), they can activate those pro axis countries in the NCM of the same turn. It is best to have this set-up ahead of time if you can. Allies probably won’t see it coming the first time LOL.

If Sweden goes pro axis Germany would Non Combat Move (NCM) into Goteborg to claim it, along with any ground units in Goteborg and its entire navy in the adjacent sz18 (no dice rolling from what I gather). The Swedish units in Stockholm would remain pro axis until the Germans NCM in to claim them (could be same turn). I know the ships listed as coastal are stuck in SZ18 for the entire game (but would def against the allies). The Swedish destroyer would join the German navy, but I don’t think it can move until Germany’s next turn. I don’t believe any newly activated (absorbed) units can move until the next turn, but some ppl play that they can (another question for Variable)

If the Germans jump the gun and attack Sweden when it is a strict neutral the ground units would def, and if the capital is taken then you roll the dice to determine the fate of the Swedish navy (see pg 30). If your hell bent on getting Sweden before it becomes pro axis I again would probably avoid the navy (so you might get part of it), and bypass the fort by attacking from an adjacent land territory from the north.

More questions for Variable in blue:
If Spain goes pro axis, I’m a little unclear on how you would activate/assume control of the fleet off of Seville. Before (5.0 rules) the axis power that took control of Seville would gain control of the Spanish fleet (activate the fleet, and able to move the non coastal ships next turn). Now do you get the fleet for taking control of the territory of Seville (like before), or does activating the capital (NCM into Madrid) now allow you to get the Spanish ships. I hope it is how it was before because it allowed Germany to NCM in to Madrid to claim ground units, but Italy could activate Seville to gain control of the navy if that is what the axis wanted to do.

similar as above:
If any territory of Spain is attacked by either side when it is a strict neutral, the rest of the Spanish territories become pro the other side. So say the US only captures Barcelona, doesn’t take Seville, or Madrid (capital). That would make both Seville and Madrid pro axis territories. In order for the axis to take control of the Spanish fleet off the coast of Seville (sz36) do they need to activate Madrid (capital), or Seville territory adjacent to the fleet?  
WB

@WILD:

@CraigBee:

Could someone walk me through a successful German amphibious assault on Oslo or Goteborg that takes two rounds of combat the first turn?

This would answer a myriad of questions I have about fortifications, neutral navy disposition after a capital is lost, and neutrals in general.

Thanks!

I’m going to go through these separately because some events could make a big deference.

A successful German amphibious assault on Oslo (Norway). Norway is a strict neutral so the Germans would need to fight their way in (so would the UK). The Norway navy is in sz7 though, so if you amphib you should attack through sz17 IMO. This will allow you a chance to capture or scuttle part of the Norway fleet if you capture the capital Oslo (new w/5.1 rules), and not have to fight through it (see pg30). First thing is that forts defend in different ways (see list pg32). The fort on Oslo only def against attacks from the sea (amphibs). If Germany puts units on a transport and attacks w/amphib, it activates the fort. The fort rolls 2 12d dice looking for 5 or less. The one neutral inf in Oslo would also get +2 (def at 6 or less). This is only for the first round of the battle, after that the fort doesn’t fire and the def inf would roll at its normal value of 4 or less (if still alive). Once the unit(s) is killed and the territory is captured the fort is removed (it can’t be used as a casualty, or take damage). I believe that if the fort is activated (an amphib), that any attacking unit could/would be taken as a causality including units that came from adjacent land territories and air units (but not 100% sure). Question for Variable

If a fortress can defend any attack, any casualty can be chosen. If it can only defend against a sea zone, a casualty that is amphib assaulting must be chosen. These are like Atlantic Wall guns. Will add clarification.

One way to by pass the fort is to attack Oslo from Finland. Turn one take Narvic, and turn two attack Oslo with a couple inf and air units (no amphib, no fort), you could even buy a couple paratroopers G1, and take it by air only G2 (again no amphib, no fort). UK isn’t generally in a position to do much about it if you hammered their navy G1 using the second impulse.

I haven’t yet played with the new rules for when you capture a pro or strict neutrals capital. The key word there I believe is capture (make an attack). I believe if the neutral power is pro your side, you still non combat move in to claim all. There would be no dice rolling for ships etc (from what I can tell).

The Germans are probably better off waiting on Goteborg (Sweden) because later in the game it has a good possibility of becoming a pro axis territory, same with Spain (read pg30). FYI if the Germans meet the requirements for Sweden or Spain to go pro axis during the German combat phase (say capture Moscow), they can activate those pro axis countries in the NCM of the same turn. It is best to have this set-up ahead of time if you can. Allies probably won’t see it coming the first time LOL.

If Sweden goes pro axis Germany would Non Combat Move (NCM) into Goteborg to claim it, along with any ground units in Goteborg and its entire navy in the adjacent sz18 (no dice rolling from what I gather). The Swedish units in Stockholm would remain pro axis until the Germans NCM in to claim them (could be same turn). I know the ships listed as coastal are stuck in SZ18 for the entire game (but would def against the allies). The Swedish destroyer would join the German navy, but I don’t think it can move until Germany’s next turn. I don’t believe any newly activated (absorbed) units can move until the next turn, but some ppl play that they can (another question for Variable)

Correct. Absorbed units are activated as part of NCM and may not move again. They must wait until the next turn.

If the Germans jump the gun and attack Sweden when it is a strict neutral the ground units would def, and if the capital is taken then you roll the dice to determine the fate of the Swedish navy (see pg 30). If your hell bent on getting Sweden before it becomes pro axis I again would probably avoid the navy (so you might get part of it), and bypass the fort by attacking from an adjacent land territory from the north.

More questions for Variable in blue:
If Spain goes pro axis, I’m a little unclear on how you would activate/assume control of the fleet off of Seville. Before (5.0 rules) the axis power that took control of Seville would gain control of the Spanish fleet (activate the fleet, and able to move the non coastal ships next turn). Now do you get the fleet for taking control of the territory of Seville (like before), or does activating the capital (NCM into Madrid) now allow you to get the Spanish ships. I hope it is how it was before because it allowed Germany to NCM in to Madrid to claim ground units, but Italy could activate Seville to gain control of the navy if that is what the axis wanted to do.

similar as above:
If any territory of Spain is attacked by either side when it is a strict neutral, the rest of the Spanish territories become pro the other side. So say the US only captures Barcelona, doesn’t take Seville, or Madrid (capital). That would make both Seville and Madrid pro axis territories. In order for the axis to take control of the Spanish fleet off the coast of Seville (sz36) do they need to activate Madrid (capital), or Seville territory adjacent to the fleet?  
WB

I think I can answer both of these pretty easily. First, when Spain is Strict Neutral, any attack on any of it’s territories result in all Spanish territories turning Pro Neutral toward the other side. The navy would have to be rolled for if the capital were captured by attack (aggression, not activation). This is like the Vichy rule in a sense. While Spain is Pro-Axis, any activation move into any Spanish territory by Axis powers results in all spanish units being absorbed by that power.

I redirected in black, thanks for taking the time to work through this w/me Variable, and I hope this was helpful to CraigBee.

@Variable:

@WILD:

I believe that if the fort is activated (an amphib), that any attacking unit could/would be taken as a causality including units that came from adjacent land territories and air units (but not 100% sure). Question for Variable

If a fortress can defend any attack, any casualty can be chosen. If it can only defend against a sea zone, a casualty that is amphib assaulting must be chosen. These are like Atlantic Wall guns. Will add clarification.

OK’ so if the fort defends the sea only, fort hits would be applied to the amphib units only (first), but any defending ground units (including inf that get a +2 boost) that get a hit must still be applied right, to any unit the attacker chooses (first to amphib units if still available, then to units coming from adjacent land territories, or air).

Example:
Germany attacks Oslo with 2 inf (by transport), one inf from adjacent land territory, and 1 ftr (from where ever). Oslo defends with fort (2 dice at 5), and 1 inf (1 dice at 6 because of +2 from fort). Oslo rolls all 5’s in the first round of battle (all hits). The fort hits go to the 2 amphib inf w/o a doubt. The hit from the def inf (although it only hit because of the +2 from the fort) is still applied right. Either to the inf coming from adjacent land territory, or to the fighter (attackers choice). That 3rd hit isn’t lost because the inf is tied to the fort because it got +2 or something is it?

More questions for Variable in blue:
If Spain goes pro axis, I’m a little unclear on how you would activate/assume control of the fleet off of Seville. Before (5.0 rules) the axis power that took control of Seville would gain control of the Spanish fleet (activate the fleet, and able to move the non coastal ships next turn). Now do you get the fleet for taking control of the territory of Seville (like before), or does activating the capital (NCM into Madrid) now allow you to get the Spanish ships. I hope it is how it was before because it allowed Germany to NCM in to Madrid to claim ground units, but Italy could activate Seville to gain control of the navy if that is what the axis wanted to do.

similar as above:
If any territory of Spain is attacked by either side when it is a strict neutral, the rest of the Spanish territories become pro the other side. So say the US only captures Barcelona, doesn’t take Seville, or Madrid (capital). That would make both Seville and Madrid pro axis territories. In order for the axis to take control of the Spanish fleet off the coast of Seville (sz36) do they need to activate Madrid (capital), or Seville territory adjacent to the fleet?  
WB

I think I can answer both of these pretty easily. First, when Spain is Strict Neutral, any attack on any of it’s territories result in all Spanish territories turning Pro Neutral toward the other side. The navy would have to be rolled for if the capital were captured by attack (aggression, not activation). This is like the Vichy rule in a sense. While Spain is Pro-Axis, any activation move into any Spanish territory by Axis powers results in all spanish units being absorbed by that power.

OK, think I got it. So your saying that if Spain goes pro axis (either through an event, or direct allied attack), if Germany or Italy enter any Spanish territory they would claim all Spanish units from all 3 Spanish territories and the fleet.

Example:
Germany has Paris, and captures Leningrad in the combat move phase (event that makes Spain pro Axis). If in the German NCM (of the same turn) a German unit enters Barcelona, then the units in all three Spanish territories become absorbed by Germany including the Spanish fleet.

@WILD:

I redirected in black, thanks for taking the time to work through this w/me Variable, and I hope this was helpful to CraigBee.

@Variable:

@WILD:

I believe that if the fort is activated (an amphib), that any attacking unit could/would be taken as a causality including units that came from adjacent land territories and air units (but not 100% sure). Question for Variable

If a fortress can defend any attack, any casualty can be chosen. If it can only defend against a sea zone, a casualty that is amphib assaulting must be chosen. These are like Atlantic Wall guns. Will add clarification.

OK’ so if the fort defends the sea only, fort hits would be applied to the amphib units only (first), but any defending ground units (including inf that get a +2 boost) that get a hit must still be applied right, to any unit the attacker chooses (first to amphib units if still available, then to units coming from adjacent land territories, or air).

No, this applies only to the Fortifications dice. Any units in the territory cause casualties as normal. If the attacker wishes to lose a unit from an adjacent territory hit by the infantry in your example, that’s fine.

Example:
Germany attacks Oslo with 2 inf (by transport), one inf from adjacent land territory, and 1 ftr (from where ever). Oslo defends with fort (2 dice at 5), and 1 inf (1 dice at 6 because of +2 from fort). Oslo rolls all 5’s in the first round of battle (all hits). The fort hits go to the 2 amphib inf w/o a doubt. The hit from the def inf (although it only hit because of the +2 from the fort) is still applied right. Either to the inf coming from adjacent land territory, or to the fighter (attackers choice). That 3rd hit isn’t lost because the inf is tied to the fort because it got +2 or something is it?

Not lost. See above.

More questions for Variable in blue:
If Spain goes pro axis, I’m a little unclear on how you would activate/assume control of the fleet off of Seville. Before (5.0 rules) the axis power that took control of Seville would gain control of the Spanish fleet (activate the fleet, and able to move the non coastal ships next turn). Now do you get the fleet for taking control of the territory of Seville (like before), or does activating the capital (NCM into Madrid) now allow you to get the Spanish ships. I hope it is how it was before because it allowed Germany to NCM in to Madrid to claim ground units, but Italy could activate Seville to gain control of the navy if that is what the axis wanted to do.

similar as above:
If any territory of Spain is attacked by either side when it is a strict neutral, the rest of the Spanish territories become pro the other side. So say the US only captures Barcelona, doesn’t take Seville, or Madrid (capital). That would make both Seville and Madrid pro axis territories. In order for the axis to take control of the Spanish fleet off the coast of Seville (sz36) do they need to activate Madrid (capital), or Seville territory adjacent to the fleet?  
WB

I think I can answer both of these pretty easily. First, when Spain is Strict Neutral, any attack on any of it’s territories result in all Spanish territories turning Pro Neutral toward the other side. The navy would have to be rolled for if the capital were captured by attack (aggression, not activation). This is like the Vichy rule in a sense. While Spain is Pro-Axis, any activation move into any Spanish territory by Axis powers results in all spanish units being absorbed by that power.

OK, think I got it. So your saying that if Spain goes pro axis (either through an event, or direct allied attack), if Germany or Italy enter any Spanish territory they would claim all Spanish units from all 3 Spanish territories and the fleet.

Correct.

Example:
Germany has Paris, and captures Leningrad in the combat move phase (event that makes Spain pro Axis). If in the German NCM (of the same turn) a German unit enters Barcelona, then the units in all three Spanish territories become absorbed by Germany including the Spanish fleet.

Correct.

Quick responses, awesome game, life is good  :-D

@CraigBee:

This is very helpful.  We start our (delayed) game tomorrow.  I can’t find anywhere in the rules that talks about “coastal Navy”.  What am I missing?

Once Norway is taken by the Germans, I’m still not sure what happens to the Norwegian Navy?

This is my understanding of how it works (I’m sure Variable will correct me if I’m wrong). If a ship is listed as coastal it is always confined to the sea zone adjacent to it’s originating country regardless of who ends up with control of it (well unless it is scuttled, or killed off and removed from play).

Norway is listed as a strict neutral, and the Norwegian capital is Oslo (FYI the roundels for capital territories are in full color, roundels for non capital territories are shaded). Once the Germans capture Oslo, you would roll dice to determine the fate of the Norwegian navy in sz 7 (assuming you didn’t amphib through sz 7). The navy has 2bb’s (coastal), 1 ss (coastal), and 1 dd (that can be moved).

Say you rolled:
*1st bb rolls a 5. Scuttled (remove it from play).
*2nd bb rolls a 2. Ship is captured by Germany, but because it is coastal can never move from sz 7, but will def if attacked (probably place a German control marker under it to show it is coastal).
*ss rolls a 10. Escapes capture (becomes UK I guess because they are the closest, and only Allied power at war in Europe), but because it is coastal it is stuck in sz7 the entire game. It will def as any allied ship though (I would probably put a UK control marker under it to show it is coastal)
*dd rolls an 11. Escapes capture, and is moved to the nearest allied naval base, or fleet. That would be the naval base off Scotland sz 15 (neighboring sz).

BTW if you rolled a 1, and captured the dd (only ship in the Norwegian navy that can move) it would stay in sz 7 until Germany’s next turn. Then it could move as any other German ship.

@CraigBee:

Thanks again Wild Bill.  What indicates that the Norwegian Destroyer can move, but the rest is stuck on the coast?  I’m having trouble figuring understanding how to determine if a navy is locked on the coast or is free to move.  Is there something on the setup charts I am missing?  Or something in the rules I’m not reading?

Yea the set-up chart for the strict and pro neutrals say (coastal) after certain ships. For the record all the neutral bb’s, and ss are coastal. I think it is so if you acquire them it doesn’t sway too much power your way. It also helps guard against bombardment during amphibs, or extra protection for your navy if you move it to the sz w/friendly coastal ships. They will defend with you.

I think it would be strange, but you could end up with coastal ships from both enemy sides in the same sea zone now that you are rolling dice.

Only thing I have to add to this is a coastal must stay in a sea zone bordering it’s original country. This doesn’t necessarily mean it’s confined to one sea zone. If a country (for example all of Norway) borders more than one sea zone, the coastal ships can move into any of those sea zones.

@Variable:

Only thing I have to add to this is a coastal must stay in a sea zone bordering it’s original country. This doesn’t necessarily mean it’s confined to one sea zone. If a country (for example all of Norway) borders more than one sea zone, the coastal ships can move into any of those sea zones.

OK, we have played it that way, but I didn’t know it was ruled that way. So after Oslo falls, and the Norwegian navy is activated the coastal ships could stay in sz7, or starting on the next turn could move to sz8, or sz 17 (all 3 sz’s are adjacent to Norway).

Couple quick questions/comments:

1. Now that the dice are involved (in rare occasions) you could end up with one Norw bb, on the allies side, and the other on the axis side (both coastal). Now that I know they have some limited movement, does one of them have to move once it is able to move (if possible). If coastal ships can’t perform attacks, then I guess it wouldn’t make that sz hostel, so they could be on opposite sides, but share the same sz?.

2. Why can’t a coastal ship patrol/attack if the enemy enters a sz adjacent to one of its territories with-in its range. If this was a possibility, then if the above scenario happened (2 coastal ships from opposing sides end up in the same sz), then they could fight, or one could leave (if possible).

3. Say Oslo is captured by Germany, and through the dice axis (Germany) is able to claim one Norw coastal bb, and the ss. Later in the game if England invades and takes Oslo (capital) would they get a chance to roll for the coastal navy if it is still alive?  These ships are technically still tied to the defense of Norway being coastal. Same question could be posed for any neutral navy if their capital exchanges hands.

Sorry to be such a PITA
WB

Couple more questions about coastal ships, now that I know they have the ability to move along the shoreline of the controlling country (once activated be it through an attack, or pro friendly activation):

1. Once a coastal ship is activated, does a coastal battleship have the ability to block movement through that sz, or is it considered near shore so can be bypassed?

Example(s), can an axis Spanish coastal BB in sz35 stop allied surface ships from entering the Med? Same for an axis Swedish BB in sz17 restricting the UK from attacking into the Baltic with surface ships? (I understand the straight rules would also apply)

2. Coastal ships can only defend along their shorelines (by themselves, or with friendly’s), they aren’t allowed to move to attack enemy ships along their coastline right?

#2 above kinda makes coastal subs useless IMO, is there any thought of allowing coastal ships (maybe just subs) to attack along their coastline?

Coastal ships are allowed to attack, but only in SZ bordering their country. They can attack with their controlling power (the country that activated or took command of their units). If I said defend before, it was in reference to defending their coastline, not defending only. My apologies…

Hi all,

What pieces are you using for coastal battleships? The HBG neutral sets do not include BBs so we’ve been using old school A and A ships with paint jobs. Are there any plans to make some coastal BB sculpts? I’ve been looking at GHQ WWI BBs to use as these ships as a lot of the coastals of the period where older models (such as Argentina’s and Brazil’s) and the size of the ships match up pretty good with A and A stuff.

The above posts answered a lot of questions our group has had regarding coastal ships. Thanks for working through it. We played last weekend with the rules as spelled out in your discussions and it worked out great.

@koba:

Hi all,

What pieces are you using for coastal battleships? The HBG neutral sets do not include BBs so we’ve been using old school A and A ships with paint jobs. Are there any plans to make some coastal BB sculpts? I’ve been looking at GHQ WWI BBs to use as these ships as a lot of the coastals of the period where older models (such as Argentina’s and Brazil’s) and the size of the ships match up pretty good with A and A stuff.

The above posts answered a lot of questions our group has had regarding coastal ships. Thanks for working through it. We played last weekend with the rules as spelled out in your discussions and it worked out great.

We made these which work great. 2 sizes and easy to see.

http://www.historicalboardgaming.com/HBG-Coastal-Marker-Acrylic_p_1160.html

Looks good. I’ll have to order them. Sometimes I have a hard time keeping up with all the new markers coming out.

Thanks Variable.